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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:41 am 
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I really find it amusing the amnesia Lefties have over the previous 8 years. One of my friends was a good example "No one compared Bush to Hitler or a monkey what are you talking about?"

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:46 am 
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Khross wrote:
Serienya:
I'm willing to suspect that you know very little about how Hitler's administration operated or his road to power. Rather, you just know about the Holocaust and World War II.



Why do you automatically assume that everyone knows less than you? It's incredibly arrogant and really annoying, Khross.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:05 am 
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I'm going to guess that in this particular instance, it is because Serienya posted something that indicated her ignorance of what she was discussing. This seems a peculiar post from you, LK, given a fairly recent thread in which you admitted ignorance of most things political or economic.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:13 am 
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Sorry, I'm in a bad mood. Walking away......

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:23 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Why do you automatically assume that everyone knows less than you?
I don't assume anything about anyone's knowledge. Serienya indicated she felt the comparison to Hitler and Lenin was hyperbolic, rather than substantive. However, Serienya left out Lenin and stated, quite flatly, that "Comparing someone to Hitler is just being provocative, and people think you're just being extremist yourself. It's like turning up the hyperbole to 11." Except, it's not hyperbole if the comparison is valid in terms of actual government policy on issues of economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation. More to the point, the only thing 99% of Americans know about Hitler is that he lead Germany during World War II and had some part in the Holocaust. The Hitler/NAZI~Genocide Conflation is simply all that our public schools and most surveys of European history teach.

So, tell me, what do you know about Hitler's rise to power? What do you know about German economic policy between 1921 and 1939? What do you know about the National Socialist Party of Germany that isn't glossed over under the umbrella of White Supremacy and Swastikas?
LadyKate wrote:
It's incredibly arrogant and really annoying, Khross.
Arrogant and annoying is presuming that the sum total of Hitler's history is the Holocaust (and I could go on for weeks about that subject) ... Arrogant and annoying is the American propensity for folklore as history.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:34 am 
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Serienya wrote:
Screeling wrote:
So what are the Iowa Tea Party's stripes exactly? Pissed off?


I was going for 'pathetic'. Comparing someone to Hitler is just being provocative, and people think you're just being extremist yourself. It's like turning up the hyperbole to 11.


I disagree with pathetic, I think pissed off is more accurate, but I do agree with you on the extremist and hyperbole points. Say what you will about comparisons to Hitler, and I do know what they are getting at, but these types of portrayals are indeed hyperbole. More important, it will definitely be seen as extremist by a large portion of the population.

Anyway, I'd argue Mussolini should be up there rather than Lenin!

Well, he should.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:34 am 
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Khross wrote:
More to the point, the only thing 99% of Americans know about Hitler is that he lead Germany during World War II and had some part in the Holocaust. The Hitler/NAZI~Genocide Conflation is simply all that our public schools and most surveys of European history teach.

More to the point If 99% of American's are ignorant of the policies and practices of ^^ then what do you suppose the motive of this group was? Is the Utah (IIRC) Tea-Party the 1% of American's who actually know about the subject?

It was designed to be incendiary and sensationalistic when the Left did it to Bush and it still is now that the Right is doing it to Obama.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:51 am 
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Hopwin:

Of course it's incendiary, but that doesn't change the validity of the comparison one bit; nor, for that matter, does it invalidate the comparisons to Bush. That said, Mike Judge just might be the smartest man alive.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:57 am 
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Khross wrote:
Hopwin:

Of course it's incendiary, but that doesn't change the validity of the comparison one bit; nor, for that matter, does it invalidate the comparisons to Bush. That said, Mike Judge just might be the smartest man alive.


What does Mike Judge have to do with the discussion?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:59 am 
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I'm guessing "Idiocracy".

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:30 am 
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Khross wrote:
Except, it's not hyperbole if the comparison is valid in terms of actual government policy on issues of economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation.


Right, because the historical import of the Nazi regime lies in its economic policy. :roll:

Even if there are parallels that can be drawn on those issues between the Nazis and either the Dems or the Reps, the point of invoking them is to make use of the fanatically evil and tyrannical nature of the Nazis in order to tar the opposition. It has nothing whatsoever to do with dry, academic discussion of "economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation." Anyone who claims otherwise is either blind, stupid, or lying.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:33 am 
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Dash wrote:
I'm guessing "Idiocracy".

No way, bunghole. Beavis and Butthead!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:34 am 
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Khross wrote:
So, tell me, what do you know about Hitler's rise to power? What do you know about German economic policy between 1921 and 1939? What do you know about the National Socialist Party of Germany that isn't glossed over under the umbrella of White Supremacy and Swastikas?


Well, obviously not as much as your Lordship seems to know, but a lot more than you assume I know. Which kind of makes you a prick, in my book.
I spent most of junior high and high school reading every novel I could get my hands on about the Holocaust and in college learned everything I could about the rest of History, including taking an upper level class taught by an amazing German professor in his last year before retirement.
We learned quite a bit about Hitler's rise to power and his life before politics including "mundane" details like his penchant for artwork and postcards. We spent hours in class and hours at home poring over books, letters, documents, and media pertaining to German economic policies, politics, communications, etc.
Basically, the class was based on everything that you DON'T hear about Hitler's rise to power and the Holocaust.

Did I retain all of this knowledge from years ago well enough to flaunt it in other people's faces and gloat about how much more I know than they do? Nope.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:42 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Khross wrote:
Except, it's not hyperbole if the comparison is valid in terms of actual government policy on issues of economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation.


Right, because the historical import of the Nazi regime lies in its economic policy. :roll:

Even if there are parallels that can be drawn on those issues between the Nazis and either the Dems or the Reps, the point of invoking them is to make use of the fanatically evil and tyrannical nature of the Nazis in order to tar the opposition. It has nothing whatsoever to do with dry, academic discussion of "economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation." Anyone who claims otherwise is either blind, stupid, or lying.


So you believe that the attrocities of the Nazi's happened in a vaccum, and came from nowhere? It had nothing to do with culmination of national "economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation"?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:49 am 
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Rynar wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Khross wrote:
Except, it's not hyperbole if the comparison is valid in terms of actual government policy on issues of economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation.


Right, because the historical import of the Nazi regime lies in its economic policy. :roll:

Even if there are parallels that can be drawn on those issues between the Nazis and either the Dems or the Reps, the point of invoking them is to make use of the fanatically evil and tyrannical nature of the Nazis in order to tar the opposition. It has nothing whatsoever to do with dry, academic discussion of "economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation." Anyone who claims otherwise is either blind, stupid, or lying.


So you believe that the attrocities of the Nazi's happened in a vaccum, and came from nowhere? It had nothing to do with culmination of national "economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation"?


No, he doesn't believe that. However most people, while they don't specifically believe it happened in a vaccuum, know almost nothing about Hitler's rise to power; a lot of them think he "siezed power" and the Holocaust started the following week and WWII the week after that, or something along those lines.

The people framing the billboard know perfectly well that most people who think "Hitler" think "Holocaust/WWII" and won't even get the more subtle allusion to economic policy. That's what RD is pointing out; the overt message of the billboard is one about economics and such but there's an underlying play on people's fear of Nazis, and to a lesser extent, Soviet Communism for their other various misbehaviors.

The problem, however, isn't that people should avoid sending the message because most people aren't savvy enough to understand what the overt message is; that's essentially saying "The Tea Party shouldn't say this because people are too poorly educated to grasp the real issue". The problem is the fact that people do get this pitiful rendition of history after the Civil War that has to be rushed through in a year or two of HS because there's been too much time wasted on Eli Whitney and his stupid Cotten Gin and so forth year after year.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:53 am 
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Rynar wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Khross wrote:
Except, it's not hyperbole if the comparison is valid in terms of actual government policy on issues of economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation.


Right, because the historical import of the Nazi regime lies in its economic policy. :roll:

Even if there are parallels that can be drawn on those issues between the Nazis and either the Dems or the Reps, the point of invoking them is to make use of the fanatically evil and tyrannical nature of the Nazis in order to tar the opposition. It has nothing whatsoever to do with dry, academic discussion of "economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation." Anyone who claims otherwise is either blind, stupid, or lying.


So you believe that the attrocities of the Nazi's happened in a vaccum, and came from nowhere? It had nothing to do with culmination of national "economics, fiscal reform, and market regulation"?

I really would like to see an honest answer to this question from RangerDave.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:56 am 
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I believe that RD, and Hopwin's point, and I agree with them, is that to the majority of the people in the US, there is a specific association of what Hitler represents.

The accuracy of comparison between the state of the US economy and political moves/regulations between then and now are completely lost, even if valid.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:57 am 
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See, this is where I disagree, because at the barest minimum, it creates a teaching opportunity in the national dialogue.

Someone sees the sign, and reacts as Serianya did. A convsation then ensues about the causes of the Holocaust and the other attrocities of the Germans, and all of a sudden people are talking about economics. Maybe they learn something... maybe they begin to see eerie similarities between our current policies and national dialogue and that of pre-war Europe... maybe, just maybe, a few blinders start to come off.

In my mind it's very similar to placing a totaled car with a death toll attached to it on the front lawn of a high-school in the weeks leading up to prom and graduation.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:01 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Well, obviously not as much as your Lordship seems to know, but a lot more than you assume I know. Which kind of makes you a prick, in my book.
Except, I'm not making any assumptions of what you know or don't know, LadyKate. In fact, I specifically asked what you did know.
LadyKate wrote:
I spent most of junior high and high school reading every novel I could get my hands on about the Holocaust and in college learned everything I could about the rest of History, including taking an upper level class taught by an amazing German professor in his last year before retirement.

We learned quite a bit about Hitler's rise to power and his life before politics including "mundane" details like his penchant for artwork and postcards. We spent hours in class and hours at home poring over books, letters, documents, and media pertaining to German economic policies, politics, communications, etc.

Basically, the class was based on everything that you DON'T hear about Hitler's rise to power and the Holocaust.
Which is awesome ... again, I asked you, specifically, what you knew about these things, as opposed to making any assumptions or deductions about your knowledge. What I did do, however, was point out to Serienya that there exists a valid level of comparison on issues of policy and practice between the three heads of state on that billboard.
LadyKate wrote:
Did I retain all of this knowledge from years ago well enough to flaunt it in other people's faces and gloat about how much more I know than they do? Nope.
There is no flaunting or gloating going on in this thread. Do try not read things into my posts that aren't there.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:03 am 
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Rynar wrote:
See, this is where I disagree, because at the barest minimum, it creates a teaching opportunity in the national dialogue.

Someone sees the sign, and reacts as Serianya did. A convsation then ensues about the causes of the Holocaust and the other attrocities of the Germans, and all of a sudden people are talking about economics. Maybe they learn something... maybe they begin to see eerie similarities between our current policies and national dialogue and that of pre-war Europe... maybe, just maybe, a few blinders start to come off.

Potentially, but if that were the intent, the manner in which the information was presented could have been much better, to actually draw a parallel between then and now at those levels. That was not the case with that billboard.

Plus, it assume that people beyond their years in HS and College, who didn't bother to learn the topics then, would react in a manner other than what they have already been associated, or bother to learn what they missed. I don't have that much faith in people.

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In my mind it's very similar to placing a totaled car with a death toll attached to it on the front lawn of a high-school in the weeks leading up to prom and graduation.

That's merely a stark reminder of what the majority of those students have already been taught/know.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:04 am 
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And even though they are valid, cant you point to other present day nations much further along the road to serfdom that would be a better representation?

The left did the same thing with Bush and Hitler. I cant find it but I distinctly remember a list of characteristics of Nazi Germany or Fascism in general compared to Bush and the US. It had things like the Patriot Act and using an enemy to gain political power and other tenuous links to make it's case. It's hyperbole.

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No, it isn't. Those comparisons were equally valid.

And why would anyone point to other nations farther along "The Road". It really isn't relevant to the national conversation, and if people can't be bothered to understand their own economic policy, what makes you think that of a foriegn state would bring them around to clarity?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


Last edited by Rynar on Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Khross: You just rub me the wrong way a lot. Maybe its just me, but the way you word things seems quite arrogant at times which is incredibly frustrating for me because it makes me feel stupid. :(
Aside from that, I very much enjoy learning from you and others here.
I have a lot of 'useless' knowledge...as in, I'm quite intelligent and well versed in a heck of a lot of stuff but completely ignorant in how to apply it.
This current conversation for example....I know a lot of stuff, but I'm completely lost in this debate.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:08 am 
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Here we go:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/ ... t_23_2.htm

Spoiler:
Free Inquiry readers may pause to read the “Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles” on the inside cover of the magazine. To a secular humanist, these principles seem so logical, so right, so crucial. Yet, there is one archetypal political philosophy that is anathema to almost all of these principles. It is fascism. And fascism’s principles are wafting in the air today, surreptitiously masquerading as something else, challenging everything we stand for. The cliché that people and nations learn from history is not only overused, but also overestimated; often we fail to learn from history, or draw the wrong conclusions. Sadly, historical amnesia is the norm.

We are two-and-a-half generations removed from the horrors of Nazi Germany, although constant reminders jog the consciousness. German and Italian fascism form the historical models that define this twisted political worldview. Although they no longer exist, this worldview and the characteristics of these models have been imitated by protofascist1 regimes at various times in the twentieth century. Both the original German and Italian models and the later protofascist regimes show remarkably similar characteristics. Although many scholars question any direct connection among these regimes, few can dispute their visual similarities.

Beyond the visual, even a cursory study of these fascist and protofascist regimes reveals the absolutely striking convergence of their modus operandi. This, of course, is not a revelation to the informed political observer, but it is sometimes useful in the interests of perspective to restate obvious facts and in so doing shed needed light on current circumstances.

For the purpose of this perspective, I will consider the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco’s Spain, Salazar’s Portugal, Papadopoulos’s Greece, Pinochet’s Chile, and Suharto’s Indonesia. To be sure, they constitute a mixed bag of national identities, cultures, developmental levels, and history. But they all followed the fascist or protofascist model in obtaining, expanding, and maintaining power. Further, all these regimes have been overthrown, so a more or less complete picture of their basic characteristics and abuses is possible.

Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power. These basic characteristics are more prevalent and intense in some regimes than in others, but they all share at least some level of similarity.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

Does any of this ring alarm bells? Of course not. After all, this is America, officially a democracy with the rule of law, a constitution, a free press, honest elections, and a well-informed public constantly being put on guard against evils. Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not.

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Rynar wrote:
And why would anyone point to other nations farther along "The Road". It really isn't relevant to the national conversation, and if people can't be bothered to understand their own economic policy, what makes you think that of a foriegn state would bring them around to clarity?


Because if your argument is "Hitler wanted socialized healthcare, high taxes, larger government." I would counter, so does Canada and Sweden what's your point?

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