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If Palin is the Republican nominee for President in 2012, are you likely to vote for her?
Yes 15%  15%  [ 3 ]
No 85%  85%  [ 17 ]
Total votes : 20
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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:47 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
The Republican elements of the legislature literally cannot push legislation by virtue of mathematics, and they cannot block legislation for the same reason. As such, voting against cessation of filibuster would require Democratic party support.

...to continue to claim otherwise indicates, to me, a willful attempt to deceive.


When 40 Republicans and 2 Democrats vote to block something, not saying "Republicans blocked the legislation" is what strikes me as the willful attempt to deceive. Again, ditto on the bipartisan thing. When 60 Democrats and 2 Republicans vote to pass something, not saying "the Dems are the ones who passed it" (i.e. claiming it was bipartisan) would be deceptive.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:49 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
When 40 Republicans and 2 Democrats vote to block something, not saying "Republicans blocked the legislation" is what strikes me as the willful attempt to deceive. Again, ditto on the bipartisan thing. When 60 Democrats and 2 Republicans vote to pass something, not saying "the Dems are the ones who passed it" (i.e. claiming it was bipartisan) would be deceptive.


Your wording implies that it is a unanimous decision. Even one member of the republican party being against such a measure precludes that from being accurate.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:53 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
When 40 Republicans and 2 Democrats vote to block something, not saying "Republicans blocked the legislation" is what strikes me as the willful attempt to deceive.
How is it a willful attempt to deceive? The Republicans are mathematically incapable of blocking legislation.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:54 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
DFK! wrote:
The Republican elements of the legislature literally cannot push legislation by virtue of mathematics, and they cannot block legislation for the same reason. As such, voting against cessation of filibuster would require Democratic party support.

...to continue to claim otherwise indicates, to me, a willful attempt to deceive.


When 40 Republicans and 2 Democrats vote to block something, not saying "Republicans blocked the legislation" is what strikes me as the willful attempt to deceive.


Why? In this scenario, the Republicans alone would not have blocked the legislation.

RD wrote:
Again, ditto on the bipartisan thing. When 60 Democrats and 2 Republicans vote to pass something, not saying "the Dems are the ones who passed it" (i.e. claiming it was bipartisan) would be deceptive.


This would be correct, insofar as the use of language and procedure goes: the Democrats passed filibuster when looked at exclusively.

In the latter scenario you're looking at what would have happened regardless of the swing voters. In the former scenario you're looking at what required the swing voters.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:35 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
DFK! wrote:
The Republican elements of the legislature literally cannot push legislation by virtue of mathematics, and they cannot block legislation for the same reason. As such, voting against cessation of filibuster would require Democratic party support.

...to continue to claim otherwise indicates, to me, a willful attempt to deceive.


When 40 Republicans and 2 Democrats vote to block something, not saying "Republicans blocked the legislation" is what strikes me as the willful attempt to deceive. Again, ditto on the bipartisan thing. When 60 Democrats and 2 Republicans vote to pass something, not saying "the Dems are the ones who passed it" (i.e. claiming it was bipartisan) would be deceptive.


In the first case, it would be 2 Democrats that blocked it, not the Republicans. What would be intentionally deceptive is saying either party blocked it; it was 2 guys.

In the second case, that's true but the 2 Republicans are irrelevant. On the other hand if it was 58 Democrats and 2 Republicans it would be most accurate to say a pair of Republicans passed it.

In any case, the entire debate over Republicans obstructing stuff is stupid. If the Democrats want to pass stuff, that's their problem. It isn't the job of the Republicans to just let them do it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:45 am 
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One might even say there were elements bi-partisainship in the obstruction.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Khross wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
When 40 Republicans and 2 Democrats vote to block something, not saying "Republicans blocked the legislation" is what strikes me as the willful attempt to deceive.
How is it a willful attempt to deceive? The Republicans are mathematically incapable of blocking legislation.


Horsepucky. It takes a single republican vote to block legislation. Actually, it doesn't even take a vote. It takes a single Republican to say "this will be eternally debated without actually any debate" to indefinitely hold up legislation.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Khross wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
When 40 Republicans and 2 Democrats vote to block something, not saying "Republicans blocked the legislation" is what strikes me as the willful attempt to deceive.
How is it a willful attempt to deceive? The Republicans are mathematically incapable of blocking legislation.


Horsepucky. It takes a single republican vote to block legislation. Actually, it doesn't even take a vote. It takes a single Republican to say "this will be eternally debated without actually any debate" to indefinitely hold up legislation.


I have one word for you.

Cloture.

Kkthxdrivethruplz.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:18 pm 
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The cloture vote still requires one republican to stand up and vote for cloture.

Again, this is entirely about republican obstructionism. Had republicans not invoked fillibuster (or the quasi fillibuster they continue to invoke), a great deal of legislation would have actually been voted on as laid out in the constitution. Instead, the Republicans (And some of their allies on the other side of the aisle, and an independent) are happy enough to alter the constitutional requirement to a super majority vote.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Again, there is bi-partisanship at play here. Just not where you wish it was. There is bi-partisanship in dissent. It is not the job of Republicans to allow the Democrats to further flush the American Economy down the toilet without any resistance.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Monte wrote:
The cloture vote still requires one republican to stand up and vote for cloture.
This is false. There are only 40 Republicans in the Senate. There are 58 Democrats and 2 Independents who were formerly Democrats. Cloture motions for procedural filibusters (which are required by Senate rules for all items subject to floor debate) only require 60 votes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:39 pm 
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Joe Lieberman cannot be rationally called a democrat. He has stood against key portions of the democratic agenda.

However, the democrats do not, by any count, have a supermajority. You are also being misleading. Every item up for floor debate only requires a 60 vote margin because someone (almost always a republican) makes it that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Palin 2012?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:48 pm 
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Montegue:

Since it seems you are either unfamiliar with or misinformed about actual procedural rules in the U.S. Senate, I will simply quote the Senate on how the Senate works. The pertinent portions are emphasized in bold.
The Senate of the United States wrote:
Cloture is the only procedure by which the Senate can vote to set an end to a debate without also rejecting the bill, amendment, conference report, motion, or other matter it has been debating.1 A Senator can make a nondebatable motion to table an amendment, and if a majority of the Senate votes for that motion, the effect is to reject the amendment. Thus, the motion to table cannot be used to conclude a debate when Senators still wish to speak and to enable the Senate to vote for the proposal it is considering. Only the cloture provisions of Rule XXII achieve this purpose.
There are several stages to the process of invoking cloture.
• First, at least 16 Senators sign a cloture motion (also called a cloture petition)
that states: “We, the undersigned Senators, in accordance with the provisions of
Rule XXII of the Standing Rules of the Senate, hereby move to bring to a close
the debate upon [the matter in question].”
• To present a cloture motion, a Senator may interrupt another Senator who is
speaking. When the motion is presented, the clerk reads it.
• The cloture motion then lies over until the second calendar day on which the
Senate is in session. For example, if the motion is filed on Monday, it lies over
until Wednesday, assuming the Senate is in session daily. If the motion is filed on
Friday, it lies over until Tuesday unless the Senate was in session on Saturday or
Sunday.
• The Senate votes on the cloture motion one hour after it convenes on the second calendar day after the cloture motion was filed, and after a quorum call has established the presence of a quorum. The time for the cloture vote may be changed by unanimous consent, and the required quorum call is routinely
waived.
• The presiding officer presents the cloture motion to the Senate for a rollcall vote at the time required by Rule XXII, even if the Senate had been considering other business between the time the cloture motion was filed and the time for voting on the motion arrives.
The majority required to invoke cloture is three-fifths of the Senators duly chosen and sworn, or 60 votes if there are no vacancies in the Senate’s membership. However, invoking cloture on a measure or motion to amend the Senate’s rules requires the votes of two-thirds of the Senators present and voting, or 67 votes if all 100 Senators vote.
Senators who wish to offer amendments to a bill or amendment on which cloture has been invoked must submit their amendments in writing before the cloture vote takes place. First-degree amendments (which propose to change the text of a bill or a committee amendment in the nature of a substitute) must be submitted in writing to the journal clerk when the Senate is in session, but no later than 1:00 p.m. on the day after the cloture motion is filed. Second-degree amendments (which propose to amend first-degree amendments) must be submitted at least an hour before the Senate votes on cloture.
Source

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:55 pm 
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H.R. 3590 - The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

Not a single Republican voted for it.

Vote Result: Bill Passed

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/r ... 6#position

Quote:
Grouped By Vote Position

YEAs ---60

Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Begich (D-AK)
Bennet (D-CO)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Burris (D-IL)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Franken (D-MN)
Gillibrand (D-NY)
Hagan (D-NC)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kaufman (D-DE)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kirk (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (ID-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Merkley (D-OR)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Shaheen (D-NH)
Specter (D-PA)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Tester (D-MT)
Udall (D-CO)
Udall (D-NM)
Warner (D-VA)
Webb (D-VA)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)

NAYs ---39
Alexander (R-TN)
Barrasso (R-WY)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Burr (R-NC)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Collins (R-ME)
Corker (R-TN)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Johanns (R-NE)
Kyl (R-AZ)
LeMieux (R-FL)
Lugar (R-IN)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Risch (R-ID)
Roberts (R-KS)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Snowe (R-ME)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Wicker (R-MS)

Not Voting - 1
Bunning (R-KY)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:31 am 
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What's up with that one guy that didn't vote at all?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:40 am 
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He went home. Something about retiring...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:27 am 
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Taskiss - yes, not a single Republican voted for it. But let's not forget that the Republicans made it so that what should have required only 51 votes (50 votes?) required 60 votes and a ridiculous amount of time and energy to pass.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:29 am 
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Then why did you write:
Monte wrote:
Horsepucky. It takes a single republican vote to block legislation.


The legislation wasn't blocked, even though not a single Republican voted for it. The GOP tried to block it, the polls showed that a majority of folks were against it, yet it passed.

Democrats have held 100% of the national legislative and executive power since Obama was sworn into office. The entire record from then to now is their legacy and theirs alone.

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