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 Post subject: I am positively stunned
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:48 am 
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I don't even have words for this.

By Martin Finucane, Globe Staff

The state Legislature is poised to give final approval this week to a new law intended to bypass the Electoral College system and ensure that the winner of the presidential election is determined by the national popular vote.

Both the House and Senate have approved the National Popular Vote bill. Final enactment votes are needed in both chambers, however, before the bill goes to the governor's desk, the Globe reported last week.

Governor Deval Patrick's press office didn't immediately return a message this morning seeking comment on whether he would sign the bill, if it makes its way to his desk.
Under the proposed law, all 12 of the state's electoral votes would be awarded to the candidate who receives the most votes nationally.

Supporters are waging a state-by-state campaign to try to get such bills enacted. Once states possessing a majority of the electoral votes (or 270 of 538) have enacted the laws, the candidate winning the most votes nationally would be assured a majority of the Electoral College votes, no matter how the other states vote and how their electoral votes are distributed.

Illinois, New Jersey, Hawaii, Maryland, and Washington have already adopted the legislation, according to the National Popular Vote campaign's website.

Supporters of the change say that the current Electoral College system is confusing and causes candidates to focus unduly on a handful of battleground states.

Critics say the current system is not broken. They also point to the disturbing scenario that Candidate X wins nationally, but Candidate Y has won in Massachusetts. In that case, all of the state's 12 electoral votes would go to Candidate X, the candidate who was not supported by Massachusetts voters.

The measure passed both branches of the Legislature in 2008 but did not make it all the way through the process.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:50 am 
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Uh, that's stupid method of dealing with it, but I hate the electoral college.

The only way I support the continuation of the electoral college as a deciding factor is if all fifty states are forced to split their electoral votes evenly among the percentage breakdown of their state's popular votes.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:08 pm 
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Kaffis:

There's nothing Constitutionally unsound in what the Massachusetts Legislature is doing; see, Article II, Section I:
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Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or person holding an office of trust or profit under the United States, shall be appointed an elector.

FarSky wrote:
The only way I support the continuation of the electoral college as a deciding factor is if all fifty states are forced to split their electoral votes evenly among the percentage breakdown of their state's popular votes.
The Electoral College isn't a deciding factor. It is the actual method of choosing the President of the United States. Popular voting for the office of President remains and should remain a courtesy, if it is allowed at all in any given state.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Wouldn't it make more sense for a state to pass laws ensuring that all of their electoral votes go to the person who won the majority vote in their state?

Otherwise, as has been pointed out, states with small populations might never vote the way their populations want them to.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:10 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
Otherwise, as has been pointed out, states with small populations might never vote the way their populations want them to.
And? What's wrong with that?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Khross wrote:
FarSky wrote:
The only way I support the continuation of the electoral college as a deciding factor is if all fifty states are forced to split their electoral votes evenly among the percentage breakdown of their state's popular votes.
The Electoral College isn't a deciding factor. It is the actual method of choosing the President of the United States. Popular voting for the office of President remains and should remain a courtesy, if it is allowed at all in any given state.

I meant "method" moreso than factor. Sorry, I'm multitasking.

I believe the electoral college should be abolished. Barring that, I believe that college votes should be mandatorily split by percentages to reflect the state's popular vote.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:24 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
I believe the electoral college should be abolished. Barring that, I believe that college votes should be mandatorily split by percentages to reflect the state's popular vote.
I firmly believe that's a bad idea. In fact, I think it's a horrible idea, as the democratization of America has proven a net negative for the management of the country, individual liberties, and protection from both Federal and State governments.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:28 pm 
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Khross wrote:
FarSky wrote:
I believe the electoral college should be abolished. Barring that, I believe that college votes should be mandatorily split by percentages to reflect the state's popular vote.
I firmly believe that's a bad idea. In fact, I think it's a horrible idea, as the democratization of America has proven a net negative for the management of the country, individual liberties, and protection from both Federal and State governments.


Correlation != causation.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:29 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Correlation != causation.
It's actually a causal link, but demonstrating so would be politically incorrect.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:34 pm 
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I know you believe that. And while anyone of above-average intelligence is constantly frustrated by the choices of lower-intelligence beings affecting his or her life, I don't believe that's how the country should operate. I don't see how it's justifiable. It's also far too open for abuse: there'll always be the desire to constantly narrow the rights of the people who cast votes with which you disagree.

The only viable way to handle it, I believe, is as we have: to open it up completely. Free market democracy, as it were. You pays your money and you takes your chances.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:05 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
I know you believe that. And while anyone of above-average intelligence is constantly frustrated by the choices of lower-intelligence beings affecting his or her life, I don't believe that's how the country should operate.
Contrary to popular belief, I don't think the vast majority of people are that stupid or I'm that smart. Rather, I simply have more time to avail myself of the information available to me. That said, the Constitution prescribes a system that will work if all actors act in good faith. What democratization does, at least in this nation, is remove the propensity of the population to punish bad actors.
FarSky wrote:
I don't see how it's justifiable. It's also far too open for abuse: there'll always be the desire to constantly narrow the rights of the people who cast votes with which you disagree.
I think people should be free to vote their conscience. And when those votes result in harm to the other peoples, then the bad actors in office should be punished with the full force of the law. Unfortunately, our legislators made it illegal to hold them accountable for crimes while in office. And while I believe that legislators should be free to vote as they see fit, those votes should be constrained by the oath of office and binding covenant of this nation. And if they do not, then they should find themselves subject to the penalties of their respective states.
FarSky wrote:
The only viable way to handle it, I believe, is as we have: to open it up completely. Free market democracy, as it were. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
And you have that by choosing to be a citizen of whichever sovereign State in the Union you choose to call your home. I simply wish to restore the checks on the Federal government that would prevent the policy disasters currently facing this nation.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:06 pm 
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There is a reason we are supposed to be a Republic rather than democracy... which makes the uproar from the right about "Super Delegates" in the Democrat party funny.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:17 pm 
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Khross wrote:
NephyrS wrote:
Otherwise, as has been pointed out, states with small populations might never vote the way their populations want them to.
And? What's wrong with that?


Nothing *wrong* with it, per se, but why have a state electoral college vote that does not represent the state?

In fact, why have an electoral college vote at all if all you're doing is mimicking the popular vote?

This just seems a crude work around, instead of actually changing the system.

If it needs to be changed, change it on a consistent, national level. Don't try to work around it by giving state electoral votes up to the general public outside of the state.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:35 pm 
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Yeah. While it is, US Constitutionally, their right to change it like this, if I were a citizen of Massachusetts, I'd be outraged.

6 million people (okay, I'm not positive the population figures I quickly dug up are citizens, but we'll make the assumption here, the point isn't the precise numbers) share 12 out of 538 electors. So each thousand Massachusetts citizens' votes ought to be worth .0046% of the decision for President.

Instead, each Massachusetts citizen will, under this proposed law, be worth 1/310,000,000th of the choice of how the 12 votes get allocated. Or 1000 Massachusetts votes will be worth .000072% of the president's election.

In other words, congratulations, citizens of Massachusetts, you have elected a State legislature that is eager to devalue your vote to 1.5% of its current worth, by giving the rest of the country a say in how your sovereignly selected electors will vote, while gaining no such power for your vote to affect the other 526 electors out there.

I mean, debating the relevance and need for the electoral college is one thing on a national scale. Just giving your state's electors away on your own is absolutely retarded.

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Last edited by Kaffis Mark V on Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:38 pm 
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I'm in favor of the electoral college system. Parity for the states would be nonexistent without it.

How the individual states implement it doesn't concern me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:10 pm 
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I'm betting that if the Electoral College were eliminated, quite a few states would never see the Presidential candidate visit for decades.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Every Primary needs to be on the same day.

All the polls need to be open from 6am to 6pm, and No votes should be counted until the polls finally close in HI. In addition, Exit polling should be prohibited

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:21 pm 
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California: 36,961,644
Texas: 24,782,302
New York: 19,541,453
Florida: 18,537,969
Illinois: 12,910,409
Pennsylvania: 12,604,767
Ohio: 11,542,645
Michigan: 9,969,727
Georgia: 9,829,211
North Carolina: 9,380,884

50% of the nation's total population lives in the 10 most populous states.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Ya Know, if the federal government was operating within it's intended size and scope, this would be a lot smaller of an issue.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Khross wrote:
California: 36,961,644
Texas: 24,782,302
New York: 19,541,453
Florida: 18,537,969
Illinois: 12,910,409
Pennsylvania: 12,604,767
Ohio: 11,542,645
Michigan: 9,969,727
Georgia: 9,829,211
North Carolina: 9,380,884

50% of the nation's total population lives in the 10 most populous states.


And most of those states are deeply blue.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
I'm in favor of the electoral college system. Parity for the states would be nonexistent without it.

.


This but it needs to be changed, the electoral vote for a district need to voted the way the district voted. The Senate level votes should be based on the way the state voted. This would have the biggest impact on affecting balanced representation in the republic.
The reasons for the electoral college are very clear.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Leshani wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
I'm in favor of the electoral college system. Parity for the states would be nonexistent without it.

.


This but it needs to be changed, the electoral vote for a district need to voted the way the district voted. The Senate level votes should be based on the way the state voted. This would have the biggest impact on affecting balanced representation in the republic.
The reasons for the electoral college are very clear.


Why does this need to be changed? Direct democracy is a failed model.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:57 pm 
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Müs wrote:

And most of those states are deeply blue.


And generally pick up the tab on the red states, too.

Lenas - lrn2grammar. srsly. It's "Democratic" party, not "Democrat" party.

We should be working on expanding voting rights and opportunity, not contracting it, in my opinion. Any person living under the law of a nation has a right to an equal say in the who represents them via their vote. At least, that's how I see it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:10 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Müs wrote:

And most of those states are deeply blue.


And generally pick up the tab on the red states, too.


The tab for things that are federally mandated, which the red states, being more conservative, likely would not have wanted had states rights been supported.

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We should be working on expanding voting rights and opportunity, not contracting it, in my opinion. Any person living under the law of a nation has a right to an equal say in the who represents them via their vote. At least, that's how I see it.


I agree, to an extent. That extent being the confines of the perview of the federal government as mandated by our Constitution. Meaning that the federal government doesn't actually have the authority to make the citizens of the several states beholden to federal laws outside of those few items narrowly outlined in the document, which may be amended by the several states, where those citizens do have a say. That is to be left to the states, where is which I begin to agree with you. As the states should seek to enfranchise all those who are citizens of their state. (which they have).

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Last edited by Rynar on Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Lenas - lrn2grammar. srsly. It's "Democratic" party, not "Democrat" party.

Uh, Ladas.


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