The Glade 4.0

What's messed up is that most of that crap is written, directed, and produced by men.

Is it? I'd be interested to see the statistics on that, and regardless of who it's written, directed, and produced by, it's driven by a female market that wants to see that double standard validated. The fact that some men buy into this nonsense does not make it any less nonsense.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Wwen,
I don't think you are a monster, I only repeat words you have expressed.. If you don't really believe that stuff, then maybe I have misunderstood you...but this is the first time you have explained yourself and said that you don't really believe this stuff. Everyone deserves to vent and say stuff, it really does make you feel better. I am sorry you don't have a support system of family , that really sucks. I hope you find someone that will renew your faith in women, but to find that person you have to take some chances.

Good luck and thank you for explaining your comments more so I can understand.

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Dream as if you'll live forever...
...Live as if you'll die tomorrow

Vivere Senza Rimpianti

I used to be more interested in the whole battle of the sexes thing when I was much younger, but now I have come to the realization that:

Both men and women are sinners and saints.

Both men and women hurt the opposite sex

Both men and women are stupid and smart

Both men and women would ultimately be lost without one another

Basically: men and women deserve each other.

I will admit to being a whore.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

For the last many years I've been a monk, sigh.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

I'll admit to being emotionally retarded.

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~Tolyn~

"A penny for your thoughts; $20 to act it out."

I do not want to admit to something that anyone who already knows me has figured out...

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

This thread and a column in a recent magazine I read are interesting.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

FWIW, Taamar, I appreciate what you have said in the thread. Good on you.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Writing, directing, and producing are all male dominated, and in the end even the studio head who green-lights this sh*t is a guy. And it's even more insidious than "a female market that wants to see that double standard validated", it's both genders wanting to see something that makes their life look better by comparison. Same thing that drives the ratings on Jerry Springer; they push what sells. Think it's a load of manure? Vote with your dollars and your time and turn it off. And point out what's wrong with it without gender blaming. The problem isn't 'men' or 'women', the problem is that we're all to willing to accept the lowest common denominator.

Yup. There's a reason I don't watch TV anymore.

According to you. Repeating the same assertion over again is not the same as showing statistics. "Male-dominated" is an utterly subjective term.



I don't buy this. I haven't noticed that too many men watch these sitcoms. When men talk about a sitcom in the last 10 years its almost always Seinfeld, which doesn't portray a family.



I have news for you, no one here is gender blaming.

First of all, the fact that there is idiocy like Jerry Springer on TV does not preclude there from being an overwhelming anti-male sentiment in sitcom type programming and a great deal of advertising.

Second, save your lectures about "vote with your dollar." I already don't watch it. I pick it up only because my wife watches it when there's nothing better on. "We" are not all willing to accept the lowest common denominator; we're forced to.

Third, and last, no one is saying it's "women" as I've been pointing out from the beginning of the thread, nor is it about television entertainment; the Cosby Show was an offhand example you've inexplicably decided to sieze on as the crux of the matter. The issue is that some women engage in behavior like pretending to be married and such, and play games with the affections of men. When a heterosexual man complains about this, it is not incumbent upon him to make sure to mention that it's not all women, or that men do it to. Everyone already knows it's not all women, and that men do it too. However, the fact is that he's evidently not finding many women who don't play games, and sicne he's neither gay nor bisexual, men aren't relevant to him. It's obvious from context that he's talking about the women he meets, even if he doesn't explicitly say that.

This complaining that it's mysogeny is the double standard that's evidenced in society in general, of which television is a symptom: It's ok for women to trash men whenever and however they please, but the reverse is sexism and mysogeny. Regardless of who is writing and producing it, the fact is that the market demands this message, and it isn't just about seeing people worse than us; if it were it wouldn't be so one-sided. Claire tackling Cliff on the bed and putting him in a painful armlock over some minor dispute is funny; the reverse sparks public outrage at "violence against women". This isn't limited to TV; we had the incident a few years ago with the little girls' shirts saying "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" and such. The market contains a small but vocal portion that has an undue influence on what we get and it's not a lowest common denominator; it's a group that thinks any material that doesn't cater to their feminist attitudes is sexist and unacceptable.

Calling what has been said in this thread mysogeny is indictive of precisely that double standard on your part: If men are cricticized it's either claimed to be directed at a particular man or men (sometimes true) ignored (as has repeatedly happened on this board) or dismissed as really not being about cricticizing men (what you just got finished doing). When a man cricticizes certain women, it's automatically taken as mysogeny and aimed at women in general.

Of course, not all women engage in this double standard. Just some of them.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

White, Male guilt.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Here are the statistics. 51% of the population is female, but the BEST representation (producers) is only 35% female.

"Women make up 27 percent of television writers and 19 percent of feature film writers, according to the most recent membership report from 2005, according to figures supplied by the Writers Guild of America. "
http://www.seattlepi.com/tv/346711_womenwriters10.html


In a study published last year, Professor Martha Lauzen of San Diego State University found that only 9% of Hollywood directors in 2008 were women – the same figure she had recorded in 1998.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/jan ... ilm-makers

Women directors actually dropped by 2% since 2008, accounting for just 7% of directors on the 250 top-grossing movies of 2009. That's the same number as 1987. Only 2% of the top 250 films credited female cinematographers, and just 8% of writers were female; 86% of the films had no female writers credited. The list goes on.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-fond ... 77586.html

In the 2008-'09 television season, women comprised 25 percent of "all creators, executive producers, producers, directors, writers, editors and directors of photography working on situation comedies, drama and reality programs," according to the Center for the Study of Women in Television and Film at San Diego State University.

The most powerful creative people in the television industry tend to be show creators and/or showrunners (i.e., the executive producers in charge on a day to day basis), but only 21 percent of the creators and 23 percent of the executive producers in the 2008-'09 season were women, according to the Center (the summary of the 2008-'09 report is here).

Statistics from the Writers Guild of America paint a similar picture. As I've noted in the past, in 2007, 28 percent of all writing credits went to women -- a 2 percent uptick from 1999, when 26 percent of credits went to women.
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com ... exism.html

But despite their notable rise in the ad business, women have a long way to go, especially as creative directors, the people who ultimately are responsible for the output of an agency. Among the 33 top agencies, as ranked by the trade publication Adweek, only 4 have flagship offices with female creative directors.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/business/media/22gender.html?_r=1

-This study examined 2,137 individuals working behind the scenes on one randomly selected episode of every prime-time drama, situation comedy, and reality program airing on ABC, CBS, CW, Fox, and NBC. (MyNetworkTV halted airing original programming midseason and is thus not included in the current study.)

-Overall, women fared best as producers (35%), followed by writers (29%), executive producers (23%), creators (21%), editors (18%), directors (9%), and directors of photography (4%)

-The representation of behind-the-scenes women did not vary by program genre. Dramas, situation comedies, and reality programs all employed 25% women and 75% men.

-Women comprised the largest percentage of behind-the-scenes individuals at ABC (30%), followed by CBS (26%), NBC and CW (24%), and Fox (19%).

- Women comprised 21% of creators. This represents a decline of one percentage point from 2007-08 (22%) but an increase of three percentage points from 1997-98 (18%). 85% of programs employed no women creators (see Figure 2).

-Women accounted for 23% of executive producers. This represents an increase of one percentage point from 22% in 2007-08 and an increase of four percentage points from 19% in 1997-98.

-In 2008-09, women comprised 35% of producers. This represents a decline of two percentage points from 2007-08 (37%) but an increase of six percentage points from 1997-98 (29%).

-Women accounted for 29% of writers. This represents an increase of six percentage points from 23% in 2007-08 and an increase of nine percentage points from 20% in 1997-98. However, it is less than the recent historical high achieved in 2006-07 when women accounted for 35% of writers. 72% of the programs employed no women writers.

-Women comprised 9% of directors. This represents a decline of two percentage points from 2007-08 (11%) but an increase of one percentage point from 1997-98 (8%). 92% of programs employed no women directors.

-In 2008-09, women accounted for 18% of editors. This represents an increase of one percentage point from 17% in 2007-08 and an increase of three percentage points from 15% in 1997-98. However, it is less than the recent historical high achieved in 2001-02 when women accounted for 20% of editors. 68% of programs employed no women editors.

-Women comprised 4% of directors of photography. This represents substantial increases from 1% in 2007-08 and 0% in 1997-98. 96% of programs employed no women directors of photography.
http://wift-at.com/2010/02/17/boxed/

It's unacceptable. Totally. And it's not even the Cosby Show I keep thinking of, it's Home Improvement and the Simpsons. Lovable idiot fathers whose wife and kids are smarter... WTF is with that? And you're right... the 'Claire Huxtable' thing is offensive. it wasn't funny when Archie abused Edith and it wouldn't be funny if Cliff abused Claire, so why should it be funny because the woman is the agressor? Maybe because she's physically less powerful, it plays the 'not what you expected' card, but it shows a seriously messed up dynamic and eventually becomes cliche. Still, it's hard to blame 'feminists' for something they aren't making.


And yeah, I've seen that T-shirt. it's meant to be dark humour, but the age group wearing it doesn't get irony and it's inappropriate. People WOULD be up in arms over a shirt that targeted girls like that, but somehow the 'girl power' message makes it OK? Nuh uh. 'Girl power' ought to be about liking yourself without hating someone else. Meanwhile, does what some kid I have no control over wears really have any bearing on my right to be disgusted by the way women are constantly bashed (as a group, not as individuals) on this board?




I have no problem at all with guys saying 'that girl is a lying whore' when it's true. I have a problem with 'women are lying whores'. Similarly, I have no problem with 'that guy is an *******', I have a problem with 'Guys are *******s'. It's fair to criticize a person, not to paint an entire gender. "I think it's finally dawned on me that most women are lying whores" is not targeted at a specific woman, and that's what I'm complaining about, and no amount of 'well, women do it to men on TV all the time' changes the fact that I DON'T do it and I don't think anyone should.



Since I've got my panties in a bunch, the latest fad for advertising seems to be small precocious children telling their bumbling parents how to do something better. (learn to program a DVR, lower their car insurance, save water, refinance a house, buy mommy/daddy a gift). GRR!

This irks the **** out of me too.

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

One of these days Alice, straight to the moon!

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Hard to argue with that. Let me try

Two of the most aggregious shows that came to mind regarding misandry are Still Standing and Yes, Dear. Looked them up, and they're both written and produced (and she "created" one of the two) by Diane Burroughs kinda makes one wonder if there's not certain genres that are more conducive to this type of crap and have a larger percentage of male-bashers (both male and female) in the driver's seat.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I can't say I'm familiar with Archie and Edith; I think I've watched 1 episode in my entire life. However, it's not hard at all to blame feminists. The rise of this meme of stupid, inept husbands with wives that are smarter, abusive, or both and who have married these boobs for no apparent reason started in the early 1980s; right around the same time that feminism ran out of real discrimination to fight and had to start inventing it to keep the outrage going, and keep people like Andrea Dworkin who made their living off it, employed. These sorts of feminists are a relatively small group, but exceedingly vocal and very much in the eye of the press, an have been for ages, claiming to represent all women. It's very much the same thing as Jesse Jackson keeping his cushy deal going, finding ever-more-trivial racism to fight; like feminists he claims to represent the average black person to the public and fights off any cricticism with yet more cries of racism. The same

In any case, the problem is not that this meme is offensive (it is, but if it were only a matter of being offensive it wouldn't be an issue) but that it conveys the idea that actions that are both illegal and wrong when done by men suddenly become okay when done by women. People get a great many of their ideas from what they see on television. This attitude is so pervasive that it permeates domestic violence training; domestic violence training almost without fail focuses on male-on-female violence, at the expense not just of female-on-male but also of same-sex violence, age-based violence and family violence that is primarily about alcohol and drug issues rather than the relationship of the people involved.

It is present in other forms of entertainment as well. In the last few years, just to take country music as an example, we've had major artists singing songs about a woman ambushing a man with a shotgun after he gets out of jail for slapping her and shaking her, and one about a woman vandalizing a mans' truck for cheating on her. These were both sung by female artists, and both songs portray these actions as admirable. Again, the issue is not that it's offensive but that i's dangerous; real people get the idea in their head that women are entitled to physical violence as a tool, but men are not, and if they're entitled to something that extreme it's not hard for them to start thinking they are entitled to other double standards as well.

The real danger is not that most women (or men) conciously think this; if confronted with it most would disagree. It's that they unconciously assume it, especially if they never take any time to think critically about the issue. People like this are surprisingly common, and when they suddenly find out that the law does not tolerate such a double standard (well, usually it doesn't) they don't usually even get it then; they are in sheer surprise.



Women are not constantly bashed as a group on this board. They may occasionally get bashed, but again, that's right alongside the snide comments about men, pertenant or not to the issue at hand. We've got someone who specializes in this, we've also had cases over the years of "male ego" being used to address issues having nothing to do with gender when someone could think of nothing better to say, and there's been some fairly vigorous defenses of double standards relating to domestic issues other than violence.

What some kid wears is relevant to your "right to be offended" (whatever that is) because you're being offended is indictive of this unconcious double standard: bashing a particular woman or type of woman is somehow bashing all women and mysogenistic, but bashing a particular man is somehow not bashing all men. The second part of that is correct; the first part is not, and that doesn't even address the more generalized male bashing that does go on.



I think it's fairly obvious from context that when Wwen says that, he means most women he interacts with. You don't see me getting all upset that he might be calling my wife or my daughter a lying whore, do you? To be fair, this sort of focusing on the specific semantics at the expense of context is a by product of the excessive "Words have meanings, ZOMG!" that gets used in Hellfire so I can't totally blame you for doing the same thing, but taking this as "bashing all women" is a bit much, especially since it's hardly "constant".



Yes, this is unbelievably annoying.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

My friend at work has banned the Disney channel from her home because of this. The kids all lie to their bumbling, incompetent parents, sneak out, etc.

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None of that looks like "male-dominated" to me. Women get into those fields to the degree that they wish to. One percent of all coal miners are female; no one complains that it's male-dominated.

Heck, the highest female percentages is in the big-wig job of producer, and in non-trivial numbers. Moreover, all percentages have been increasing over the last 10 years. Look at writers, 9% up, but a 6% drop from the high a few years ago. This suggests high turnover. Women are in these fields in signficant numbers, and those numbers are generally increasing, despite it being a volatile field. That's not male domination, that's just a male preponderance.

It also does not address the types of programs that they work on.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

You keep accusing me of having a double standard... yet I'm agreeing with you that gender bashing is inappropriate no matter which way it goes. You also claim that misogyny isn't a big deal because we have a female poster who occasionally bashes men, but I've called that person out several times. If you want to play tit-for-tat about it, there's a male who is openly trying to reduce interactions with females to a formula and brags about how easy it is to manipulate us, yet I've never seen one of the guys call him out on it (and I have). And (other than that one person) the females of the Glade generally talk about the single individual male who caused them heartbreak rather than blaming their woes on the gender as a whole... this is not true the other direction.

It's not OK. Whether the target is men or women, gender bashing is not OK. It's fair to have a go at individuals of either gender, but you don't stop inequity by allowing bias in either direction. I'm not going to engage you on the issue of what happens on TV or in movies on on t-shirts anymore (though I still think you're way off-base) because it's irrelevant to the issue; I'm talking about this, our community. What is acceptable HERE?

So did anyone catch Sex And The City last night?

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

*snerk* Never seen it.