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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:27 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Except a policy of "no job = no interview" pretty much ignores education, knowledge, and talent. Entry-level graduates just out of college are not being hired simply because they don't already have jobs, which is ridiculous. It also screws over everyone who lost their last job for basically any reason other than performance issues, if their company went out of business or downsized, everyone who got canned is no longer eligible for work.

I haven't read your links yet, but I seriously doubt that being college counts as the "no job=no interview" condition you just mentioned, in particular because those right out of college also are paid less, and companies unsure about where things are headed, but need support staff to accomplish their current workload will hire those with minimal qualifications of experience in exchange for lower initial salaries.

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Fiscal incompetence? How do you pay your bills with no job? A huge number of people have been unemployed (and I mean unemployed in the sense that they've been searching for work) for over a year now.

Assuming a dual income household, how do you get into the position that are you completely dependent on the full income from both jobs with no emergency funds?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:28 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
So what? "It's not fair!" That's all your complaints amount to. That doesn't change the fact of any of it.

Your complaint about no job = no interview is spurious on its face; people don't live or work forever. Eventually a company must hire someone with no current job.


The point is that a significant amount of people looking for work are not even being given a chance, they have already been labeled by corporate America as unemployable. So we're not talking about lazy or useless people here not working, we're talking about people who want to work but due to the way stuff has been restructured will never get work. These people are pretty much the poster child for people that need government assistance, and to provide that you need more taxes.


So yes, your complaint is that it's not fair.

That's not a reason; so what if they need government assistance? Private charity should be helping with that. Either that, or they can start their own buisness or take some job stocking shelves or whatever when it comes up.

This goes directly to why we need to kick illegals out. Those jobs would pay far more if they didn't have a supply of near-free labor, and people would do them if there were no public assistance.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:31 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Ladas wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Sorry, I'm not going to be sympathetic when the Gini Index (rich/poor wealth gap) in the US keeps rising

I followed Khross' links, which lead this description of the Gini Coefficient. Based up on how this number is calculated, using it solely as a basis for equality is not valid.


Coincidentally, I came across this discussion of inequality yesterday:

Income inequality in the United States has been rising since the 1970s. What is the most effective way to succinctly convey this fact?

Here is my choice:

Image

The chart shows average inflation-adjusted incomes of the poorest 20%, middle 60%, and top 1% of households since the 1970s. The incomes include government transfers and subtract taxes. For the bulk of American households, incomes have increased moderately or minimally. For those at the top, by contrast, they have soared.

Why This Chart?

Here are what I think should be the principal considerations. Some are obvious, others perhaps not.

...3. Show incomes, rather than a summary inequality measure. Common inequality measures include the Gini coefficient, percentile ratios (e.g., P90/P50 and P50/P10), and income shares (e.g., the income share of the top 1%). They are quite useful. Nice examples from the Economic Policy Institute’s The State of Working America are here, here, and here. But they have two drawbacks. One applies to the Gini index, which is the most commonly-used inequality statistic. It doesn’t identify where in the income distribution the rise in inequality has occurred. For example, suppose the Gini rises over time. Is that because those at the top have pulled farther away from everyone else? Because those at the bottom have fallen behind? Because of a widening spread in the middle? All three? Something else?

To address this problem analysts often turn to percentile ratio or income share measures. These, however, fail to provide information about trends in actual incomes. Suppose, for example, that the 90/50 ratio increases over time. Is that because the incomes of those at the top have risen faster than the incomes of those in the middle? Because incomes at the top have risen while those in the middle have been stagnant? Because both have decreased but those at the top have done so less rapidly? Something else?

Showing trends in actual incomes — adjusted for inflation, of course — overcomes these problems. A potential drawback of doing so is that it may not be obvious from the raw income data whether or not inequality has increased, or by how much. If the magnitude of the rise in inequality is small, it may be preferable to use an inequality measure. For the United States over the past generation, however, the increase in inequality is easy to spot from data on incomes.



This falls into the "so what?" category. So what if income is unequal between the top 1% and the bottom 20% and it's growing? That bottom bracket hasn't been dropping. We don't have a goal of income equality; that's a term people use in order to borrow the connotations of fairness from concepts of legal equality to make it seem like unequal income is some sort of injustice.

Then, of course, there's the inherent dishonesty of comparing the top 1% to the bottom 20%. Why not compare the top 20%? Oh that's right; it wouldn't look as unfair.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Assuming a dual income household, how do you get into the position that are you completely dependent on the full income from both jobs with no emergency funds?


Illness, unexpected birth, divorce, car accident, too early in your career to have much savings, income too low to develop savings in the first place, etc. It's not hard to get into a tight spot, even without being "incompetent". And then, of course, is the question of what constitutes incompetence. To me that word implies seriously below-average ability, not simply screwing up in some way that an above-average person might have avoided.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:34 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Assuming a dual income household, how do you get into the position that are you completely dependent on the full income from both jobs with no emergency funds?


Seriously? If you assume that both people make the same income, and one of them loses their job and goes on unemployment, (50% of what they were getting before) then the household income is 75% of what it was before. Are you really saying that a household that doesn't save 25% or more of all the money they make is fiscally incompetent? I mean, what is the statistic for average disposable income in the US? Ten percent? Even if you cut all that out (which is not realistic) it's still not going to cover that gap.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:40 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:

I read this article, and based upon the chart of what actually triggers employers to withhold jobs, I can't help but wonder if this is a reaction caused by the regulations and hassle of garnishing wages for employees and the potential legal quagmire and liability for those employers.

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Seems like a pretty biased article that ignores whether those companies are actually in need of employees (one was a staffing company that hire for others), or just looking to trade up from successful managers.

Whats more, while it probably sucks for those that are qualified and lost their job for unusual reasons, if you were trying to fill a position, would you not be most interested in those that statistically provide the best qualified pool of applicants?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Ladas wrote:
Assuming a dual income household, how do you get into the position that are you completely dependent on the full income from both jobs with no emergency funds?


Seriously? If you assume that both people make the same income, and one of them loses their job and goes on unemployment, (50% of what they were getting before) then the household income is 75% of what it was before. Are you really saying that a household that doesn't save 25% or more of all the money they make is fiscally incompetent? I mean, what is the statistic for average disposable income in the US? Ten percent? Even if you cut all that out (which is not realistic) it's still not going to cover that gap.
Absolutely.

If you take on more debt than the partner with the lowest income can cover alone, you're making a mistake.

At a minimum, a wife must be able to carry on alone to provide for her children if something happens to the husband, and vice versa.

The way you do that is to carry your own load while single, marry someone who is carrying their own load, then bank one income from that point forward. The idea that you should depend on 2 incomes leads ... well, to exactly where the US is today.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:46 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Ladas wrote:
Assuming a dual income household, how do you get into the position that are you completely dependent on the full income from both jobs with no emergency funds?


Illness, unexpected birth, divorce, car accident, too early in your career to have much savings, income too low to develop savings in the first place, etc. It's not hard to get into a tight spot, even without being "incompetent". And then, of course, is the question of what constitutes incompetence. To me that word implies seriously below-average ability, not simply screwing up in some way that an above-average person might have avoided.


I don't disagree there are catastrophic circumstances that even the best planning can't overcome, or the opportunity costs of insuring against those situations isn't feasible or warranted.

However, what you are describing is likely a small minority of those in the position where they over extended themselves, the media's tendency to highlight those minority situations aside. Are you suggesting that even a sizable portion of those in financial trouble right now (losing their homes, etc) are in that position not because they lived within their means and didn't overextend, but because they suffered some tragic, one in a million accident?

Of course, a couple of things you listed would also likely disqualify the person from seeking jobs anyway (serious illness, disability, etc).


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:48 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Ladas wrote:
Assuming a dual income household, how do you get into the position that are you completely dependent on the full income from both jobs with no emergency funds?


Seriously? If you assume that both people make the same income, and one of them loses their job and goes on unemployment, (50% of what they were getting before) then the household income is 75% of what it was before. Are you really saying that a household that doesn't save 25% or more of all the money they make is fiscally incompetent? I mean, what is the statistic for average disposable income in the US? Ten percent? Even if you cut all that out (which is not realistic) it's still not going to cover that gap.
Absolutely.

If you take on more debt than the partner with the lowest income can cover alone, you're making a mistake.

At a minimum, a wife must be able to carry on alone to provide for her children if something happens to the husband, and vice versa.

The way you do that is to carry your own load while single, marry someone who is carrying their own load, then bank one income from that point forward. The idea that you should depend on 2 incomes leads ... well, to exactly where the US is today.


I'm going to take a pretty big guess here, but I'd say that under this criteria, at least half of the families in the US that currently own homes, shouldn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
I'm going to take a pretty big guess here, but I'd say that under this criteria, at least half of the families in the US that currently own homes, shouldn't.
More like 72%.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
I'm going to take a pretty big guess here, but I'd say that under this criteria, at least half of the families in the US that currently own homes, shouldn't.

And if that were the case, and if folks planned accordingly, the economy wouldn't be in the shape it's in.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:53 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Seriously? If you assume that both people make the same income, and one of them loses their job and goes on unemployment, (50% of what they were getting before) then the household income is 75% of what it was before. Are you really saying that a household that doesn't save 25% or more of all the money they make is fiscally incompetent? I mean, what is the statistic for average disposable income in the US? Ten percent? Even if you cut all that out (which is not realistic) it's still not going to cover that gap.

Taskiss covered this to some degree, and I gave some additional comments in my response to RD, which mirrors your statement.

However, I would point out that I think you are confused on the definition of disposable income, unless you are claiming that the average US citizen only has 10% of their income after paying taxes. I believe you mean discretionary income, which is the amount of money available to people after taxes and typical expenditures, such as rent, utilities, mortgage, etc. But that just illustrates my point. Why is that persons discretionary amount so low? Is it because they over bought on their house? They overbought on their car? etc.

That isn't fiscal responsibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:58 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I'm going to take a pretty big guess here, but I'd say that under this criteria, at least half of the families in the US that currently own homes, shouldn't.

And if that were the case, and if folks planned accordingly, the economy wouldn't be in the shape it's in.


This is getting into economics I don't understand too well, but doesn't relying on two incomes perpetuate having two incomes? As in, if every family only spent one of their two incomes and saved the rest, removing it from circulation, the economy would shrink until there was only one income per family available. Then up-and-coming families would run into the same problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:01 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
This is getting into economics I don't understand too well, but doesn't relying on two incomes perpetuate having two incomes? As in, if every family only spent one of their two incomes and saved the rest, removing it from circulation, the economy would shrink until there was only one income per family available. Then up-and-coming families would run into the same problem.

Money placed into savings doesn't remove it from the economy.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:02 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
This is getting into economics I don't understand too well, but doesn't relying on two incomes perpetuate having two incomes? As in, if every family only spent one of their two incomes and saved the rest, removing it from circulation, the economy would shrink until there was only one income per family available. Then up-and-coming families would run into the same problem.

Money placed into savings doesn't remove it from the economy.


If you put it into a bank account, no. If you put it under your mattress or buy something like gold with it, it definitely does.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:03 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
This is getting into economics I don't understand too well, but doesn't relying on two incomes perpetuate having two incomes? As in, if every family only spent one of their two incomes and saved the rest, removing it from circulation, the economy would shrink until there was only one income per family available. Then up-and-coming families would run into the same problem.
...

Really? How the **** did we get through 1950s then?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:06 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I'm going to take a pretty big guess here, but I'd say that under this criteria, at least half of the families in the US that currently own homes, shouldn't.

And if that were the case, and if folks planned accordingly, the economy wouldn't be in the shape it's in.


This is getting into economics I don't understand too well, but doesn't relying on two incomes perpetuate having two incomes? As in, if every family only spent one of their two incomes and saved the rest, removing it from circulation, the economy would shrink until there was only one income per family available. Then up-and-coming families would run into the same problem.

In my case, we live on about 85% of one income and the other is used for retirement savings (50%, right off the top), and for one time costs for items like washers, driers, furniture, cars, vacations, etc. We don't incur debt with that income and if it were to be reduced or eliminated we'd not feel a crunch (except emotionally).

If you do this from the day you combine incomes like my wife and I have done, it's not hard. If you don't want to be there, the easiest way is to not go there.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:09 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
If you put it into a bank account, no. If you put it under your mattress or buy something like gold with it, it definitely does.

I can't comment on putting it under your mattress, or buried in coffee cans in the back yard... but how does buying gold not keep the money in circulation? You are buying a commodity, and the money you used to purchase that commodity is used to pay those that produced, buy the equipment to extract it, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: The Liberal Dilemma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:35 pm 
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/facepalm

Savings are not removed from the economy, they are part of the economy. They are future demand.

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 Post subject: Re: The Liberal Dilemma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:39 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
/facepalm

Savings are not removed from the economy, they are part of the economy. They are future demand.


They only create additional future demand if people start saving less at some point in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: The Liberal Dilemma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
They only create additional future demand if people start saving less at some point in the future.
Dude, where are you getting this stuff? Cause, honestly, I'm afraid I'm going to have to make another 56,000 character post just for you ...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Ladas wrote:
Assuming a dual income household, how do you get into the position that are you completely dependent on the full income from both jobs with no emergency funds?


Seriously? If you assume that both people make the same income, and one of them loses their job and goes on unemployment, (50% of what they were getting before) then the household income is 75% of what it was before. Are you really saying that a household that doesn't save 25% or more of all the money they make is fiscally incompetent? I mean, what is the statistic for average disposable income in the US? Ten percent? Even if you cut all that out (which is not realistic) it's still not going to cover that gap.


If he doesn't I will.

A household that doesn't save 25% of its income is fiscally incompetent.

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 Post subject: Re: The Liberal Dilemma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:45 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Rynar wrote:
/facepalm

Savings are not removed from the economy, they are part of the economy. They are future demand.


They only create additional future demand if people start saving less at some point in the future.


This doesn't make any sense at all. Explain your logic please.

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 Post subject: Re: The Liberal Dilemma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Rynar wrote:
/facepalm

Savings are not removed from the economy, they are part of the economy. They are future demand.


They only create additional future demand if people start saving less at some point in the future.


...wow...

Xeq I mean this is in all earnestly...pick up Sowell's book on econ. This isn't an insult but somewhere you've picked up some horrendously misguided ideas about economics. I think it would make your more interested in the topic and spark some very interesting questions on the forum.

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 Post subject: Re: The Liberal Dilemma
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Rynar wrote:
/facepalm

Savings are not removed from the economy, they are part of the economy. They are future demand.


They only create additional future demand if people start saving less at some point in the future.


This doesn't make any sense at all. Explain your logic please.


If everyone saves say 50% of their income and always does so, how do they ever generate any more than half the demand that would be generated if everyone saved 0% of their income? Remember we're talking about saving the money, not investing it, and if you use conservative ideals on how fiscal policy should work, even a checking account is an investment.


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