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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:11 am 
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Stumbled across this today.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/07/22/ ... google_cnn

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Washington (CNN) -- President Obama will sign into law Thursday the Improper Payment Elimination Act -- an effort designed to slim down wasteful government programs and curb fraud in federal spending.

"The fact is, Washington is a place where tax dollars are often treated like Monopoly money, bartered and traded, divvied up among lobbyists and special interests," Obama said in March when he announced the initiative. "And it has been a place where waste -- even billions of dollars in waste -- is accepted as the price of doing business."

The act will use something known as payments recapture audits, which will pay auditors financial incentives to find improper payments. The White House said it could save $2 billion in taxpayer money over the next three years.

The new law also will toughen up rules for federal agencies, which will be required to report improper payments on a regular basis and elaborate on their efforts to avoid similar waste in the future.

"Well, I don't accept business as usual," the president said in March. "And the American people don't accept it either, especially when one of the most pressing challenges we face is reining in long-term deficits which threaten to leave our children a mountain of debt."

The Senate passed the Improper Payments Elimination and Recovery Act by unanimous consent June 23. The House passed it July 14.


Nice to see, and unfortunate that it didn't get more press. Of course conservatives and democrats working together isn't "good news".


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:35 am 
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So this bill cuts out about $666M in waste every year. Fantastic. Let me go organize a ticker-tape parade. Way too small a ding in wasted spending to be praiseworthy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:46 am 
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Every bit counts. That 666 million is 666 million we don't end up having to pay interest on. It's hardly impressive in terms of numbers, but hopefully it will result in prosecutions as well. We'll see.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:53 am 
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Money says all the pay cuts get targeted at the military.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:59 am 
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For those that haven't actually read the bill, it can be found here.

Based upon a quick read, this bill more than likely won't actually save money, only spend, as all the agencies will now need to hire additional people to prepare the annual reports and coordinate the "efforts" at trim costs, which can also be exempted if it is determined the effort to track costs is more than the anticipated amount to be saved.

I think it is also curious that the departments have to provide this information to the Department of Homeland Security annually.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:02 am 
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Khross wrote:
Money says all the pay cuts get targeted at the military.


I'm absoultely certain they can find 2 billion in improper payments to recoup in the defense budget. They could solve the problem more cheaply by eliminating a lot of the morass that is defense spending, finance, and contracting. If they actually do this everywhere they could probably find significantly more than 2 billion.

Unfortunately, that would require real forward planning, and sticking to the plan, on the part of both Congress and the Pentagon.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:42 am 
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Color me skeptical...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:56 am 
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Who has a link to that video with the pennies?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:17 pm 
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It amuses me that Obama doesn't point out that the biggest offenders in "Washington is a place where tax dollars are often treated like Monopoly money, bartered and traded, divvied up among lobbyists and special interests" are Congress itself.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:27 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
It amuses me that Obama doesn't point out that the biggest offenders in "Washington is a place where tax dollars are often treated like Monopoly money, bartered and traded, divvied up among lobbyists and special interests" are Congress itself.

Heh, I was tempted to link the AOL news reports breaking down spending by Congress on their staff and offices for the 2009Q3, 2009Q4 and 2010Q1.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
It amuses me that Obama doesn't point out that the biggest offenders in "Washington is a place where tax dollars are often treated like Monopoly money, bartered and traded, divvied up among lobbyists and special interests" are Congress itself.

Heh, I was tempted to link the AOL news reports breaking down spending by Congress on their staff and offices for the 2009Q3, 2009Q4 and 2010Q1.

Do so!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:48 pm 
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What Congress bought itself


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:19 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
It amuses me that Obama doesn't point out that the biggest offenders in "Washington is a place where tax dollars are often treated like Monopoly money, bartered and traded, divvied up among lobbyists and special interests" are Congress itself.


It's even more amusing when you consider the fact that the Monopoly rules specifically state that the bank never goes broke; if it runs out of cash you just make more with scrap paper and keep playing!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Okay, that was an ALOL, there, DE.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:38 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Who has a link to that video with the pennies?


OOH OOH *Waves hand* pick me! picke me!



In his defense it is four or five pennies this time.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:49 pm 
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So, it's bad that he's working on this?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:59 pm 
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No. It's bad that it is being pitched as a real solution and some sort of comprehensive reform, when in reality, it isn't. I love that it's happening. I hate the political dishonesty the administration is engaging in.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:07 pm 
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I don't see the same pitch you see. I don't see this being billed as some sort of cure all. I see it as part of a much wider strategy to bring the deficit (a deficit created by Conservative economic policies over the last 8 years, mind you) under control.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:12 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I don't see the same pitch you see. I don't see this being billed as some sort of cure all. I see it as part of a much wider strategy to bring the deficit (a deficit created by Conservative economic policies over the last 8 years, mind you) under control.


1) Republican =/ Conservative. There is nothing conservative about Keynesian policy, or deficit spending.
2) How has anything done by this administration, aside from this bill, worked to bring down the deficit? President Obama has grown the deficit more than all other presidents before him combined.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:14 pm 
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Montegue is stuck in a time-warp, Rynar. The past 8 years are Bush's fault, despite the fact that we're more than halfway through Obama's second year, and coming up on 4 years of Democrat-lead Congress.

Obama can't have grown the deficit more than anybody, because he's just starting out and not really responsible for anything yet. It's barely February 2009, dude, he hasn't had time to change anything or assume any responsibility.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:24 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Money says all the pay cuts get targeted at the military.

Pay cuts in addition to everyone being short on personnel? They've been cutting manning to pay for the wars, but we're running out of people. :(

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:58 pm 
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"I have now spent a trillion dollars of money we don't have, and in an effort to curtail crazy spending of money we don't have, I'll place blame on the bureaucrats who report directly to me, and proceed to mandate that they save or cut .06% of what I just spent."

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:09 am 
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Market -

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Private Sector Jobs -

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Government spending during a recessionary period increases aggregate demand and mitigates the downturn. We didn't spend enough to really get the job done, mostly because people think that the government is like a household and that it's finances should be managed the same. It's stupid, but it is what it is. Had we really spent what was needed in the way it was needed, I am quite sure we would be in a much better place, unemployment-wise, than we are now.

We need a massive public works project. Perhaps high speed rail, all over the country. Perhaps an apollo project on renewable energy. Something that stimulates aggregate demand in such a way that everyone starts hiring.

But, according to the people that want to withhold food to the starving, that's crazy. Sigh.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:46 am 
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So which is it, Monte? You seem to be saying here that this program is a bad idea, because what we need is even more government spending. Furthermore, if what you are saying is true, then with the pre-President Obama deficit spending done by President Bush we never would have been in a recession in the first place; because, as you said earlier when you were retconing the economic history of President Reagan, it doesn't really matter what the money gets spent on.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:37 am 
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Monte wrote:
Government spending during a recessionary period increases aggregate demand and mitigates the downturn. We didn't spend enough to really get the job done, mostly because people think that the government is like a household and that it's finances should be managed the same. It's stupid, but it is what it is. Had we really spent what was needed in the way it was needed, I am quite sure we would be in a much better place, unemployment-wise, than we are now.

We need a massive public works project. Perhaps high speed rail, all over the country. Perhaps an apollo project on renewable energy. Something that stimulates aggregate demand in such a way that everyone starts hiring.

But, according to the people that want to withhold food to the starving, that's crazy. Sigh.


In macroeconomics, aggregate demand (AD) is the total demand for final goods and services in the economy (Y) at a given time and price level[1]. It is the amount of goods and services in the economy that will be purchased at all possible price levels.[2] This is the demand for the gross domestic product of a country when inventory levels are static. It is often called effective demand, though at other times this term is distinguished.
It is often cited that the aggregate demand curve is downward sloping because at lower price levels a greater quantity is demanded. While this is correct at the microeconomic, single good level, at the aggregate level this is incorrect. The aggregate demand curve is in fact downward sloping as a result of three distinct effects; Pigou's wealth effect, the Keynes' interest rate effect and the Mundell-Fleming exchange-rate effect.


Then from the bold and underlined...
Why Pigou's hypothesis prevents the liquidity trap

An economy in a liquidity trap cannot use monetary stimulus to increase output because there is little connection between personal income and money demand, John Hicks thought that this might be another reason (along with sticky prices) for persistently high unemployment. However, the Pigou effect creates a mechanism for the economy to escape the trap:
As unemployment rises,
the price level drops,
which raises real balances,
and thus consumption rises,
which creates a different set of IS-curves on the IS-LM diagram, intersecting the LM curves above the low interest rate threshold of the liquidity trap.
Finally, the economy moves to the new equilibrium, at full employment.
Pigou concluded that an equilibrium with employment below the full employment rate (the classical natural rate) could only occur if prices and wages were sticky.


Again from the bold underline...
The term liquidity trap is used in Keynesian economics to refer to a situation where monetary policy is unable to stimulate an economy, either through lowering interest rates or increasing the money supply.


1- I cannot see how Government spending is going to increase the total demand for final goods and services in the economy at a given time and price level.

2- The way the government is doing things right now with increased spending is causing taxes to be increased, this would imply that the Pigou effect mechanism to escape the liquidity trap is being blocked from working.

3- We seem to have an economy that is currently in a liquidity trap. If this is the case (and I am likely incorrect on that point); how is government spending going to help this? They have tried lowering the interest rates and it failed, they have tried to increase the money supply further pushing # 2 (above). The increases in tax are preventing the real balances from increasing.

4- And beating a dead horse... but with the economy in as much distress as it is currently in, and with a constant influx of illegal immigrants (regardless of point of origin), who are also out of work because the economy is in the shitter.. and in many cases utilizing government services, it causes more money to be spent by the government: causing taxes to be raised to fund the government projects, again exacerbating # 2 (again above). Hurting not only the legal citizens of the country, but the illegals that are here as well.

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