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Dash
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:05 pm 
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So what is everyones take on this? Volt runs over $41k but gets a 7500 Federal tax credit on it bringing it down to 33,500. GM, last I heard, still wont turn a profit on them. They're just in it for the branding and future sales of electric vehicles.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/l ... ?track=rss

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Chevy Volt to cost $41,000 before rebate
A federal tax credit would bring the electric car's price to $33,500. Volt's main rival, the Nissan Leaf, could have a base price of $20,280 for Californians after subsidies. Both go on sale later this year.

The Chevrolet Volt, the first mass-market electric vehicle from General Motors Co., will have a sticker price starting at $41,000 when it hits showrooms later this year.

But government tax credits and rebates designed to speed the entry of electric vehicles into the marketplace will make the price more attractive. There's a federal tax credit of $7,500 for electric vehicles. That lowers the Volt price to $33,500. An earlier report factored in an additional $5,000 credit for Californians, which would have brought the price to $28,500, but GM said the Volt will not be included in the state's special rebate program.

The sticker price of the hybrid Toyota Prius, the current favorite of gasoline misers and eco-drivers, ranges from $22,150 to $28,820, depending on the trim level and equipment.

Chevrolet also plans to offer a lease program on the Volt with a monthly payment as low as $350 for 36 months plus $2,500 due at lease signing. And in a move to reassure potential buyers that they won't have to make a costly battery replacement early in the life of the vehicle, GM is guaranteeing the battery in the Volt for eight years or 100,000 miles.

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Taskiss
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Dash wrote:
Chevrolet also plans to offer a lease program on the Volt with a monthly payment as low as $350 for 36 months plus $2,500 due at lease signing. And in a move to reassure potential buyers that they won't have to make a costly battery replacement early in the life of the vehicle, GM is guaranteeing the battery in the Volt for eight years or 100,000 miles.

Here's the problem with electric cars - if you buy a used one, you're looking at a very expensive bill in the near future.

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Ladas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Here's the problem with electric cars - if you buy a used one, you're looking at a very expensive bill in the near future.

This. Believe I read that the cost to replace the batteries (disposal costs, materials, labor, etc) ran roughly 25-30% of the initial cost of the vehicle, with around a 6-10 year life cycle. They will be completely unsuitable for resale given that expected cost that quickly in the life of the vehicle.
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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:29 pm 
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So then after the battery goes the will see re-use as shells for dropping in a gas engine especially designed to replace the volt's electric one? Right? right?

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Ladas
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:31 pm 
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The Volt already has a gas engine.
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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:34 pm 
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With how much fuel capacity?

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Ladas
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
With how much fuel capacity?

Don't know, but enough capacity for the engine to generate enough electricity to drive the car an additional 300 miles. I saw one post that claimed the engine under that condition was rated at 50 MPG, but with the caveat that the standards group that rates engines hadn't decided on a standard to use for actual numbers. If that is correct, around 6 gallons.
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Rorinthas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:51 pm 
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I don't know what to say that I haven't said before.

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Screeling
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:40 pm 
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What did you say before?

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Diamondeye
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:44 pm 
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So..

What happens to the used batteries?

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Screeling
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:46 pm 
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They go in the trash so you can eventually pollute the water table. Duh!

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Taskiss
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
So..

What happens to the used batteries?

Most of the material is recyclable, but it's a nasty, toxic process.

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Rodahn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:42 pm 
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I think the promotion of alternate-fuel vehicles is a very good one . . . but electric (boogey woogey woogey) isn't a very efficient one.

A radical change is not going to happen overnight. Baby steps are best, and we are kinda seeing the first step with Flex Fuel. From there, I'd say gradually toward hydrogen.
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Rorinthas
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:55 pm 
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Plugging electric cars into our dirty dirty grid does very little. Or rather it moves polution around.

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Müs
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:27 pm 
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Rodahn wrote:
From there, I'd say gradually rapidly toward hydrogen.


Electrics aren't the answer.

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Micheal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:35 pm 
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Okay Mus, not saying I disagree with you, just tell me what the answer is and why aren't you investing in it and telling us about it now.

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Leshani
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:53 pm 
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Diesel Electric is the way to go, the technology has been around for a long time.

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Monte
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:58 am 
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Hydrogen cells. Also, I'm not so sure there's a wash between a gas-powered car and an electric car plugged into the grid. Pretty sure the electric uses significantly less dirty fuel.

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Rorinthas
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:32 am 
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Also most people who don't garage their cars don't have plugs where they park. So you put the two together, you have a lot of infrastructure improvements to make it viable. So we should probably work on grid solutions first and make the cleanest most efficient gas cars we can

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Rafael
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:43 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Plugging electric cars into our dirty dirty grid does very little. Or rather it moves polution around.


This is not true. The second law efficiency of burning fossil fuels in a large scale operation is much greater than burning fuels in a "power on demand" type local application. Aside from turbo steamer concepts like BMW drew up, there's not much one can do to further extract (available) energy from exhaus gases at elevated temperatures. The need for a car to deliver responsive power makes this a difficult challenge no one has figured out yet. Further extraction of energy is slower to occur and not too feasible in an auto application. Systems such as the turbosteamer add weight and complexity to chicle design. Large plant operations do not have this limitation.

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Kaffis Mark V
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:17 am 
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And instead, large plants have transmission loss issues. How significant they are in comparison isn't my expertise, but let's be fair and fully disclose.

Monte -- so you don't have an issue with keeping coal plants open, then? That's an interesting departure from people I associate you with, if so.

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Ladas
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:46 am 
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Rodahn wrote:
Baby steps are best, and we are kinda seeing the first step with Flex Fuel.

Flex Fuel is Emperor with no clothes.
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Screeling
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:48 am 
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Müs wrote:
Rodahn wrote:
From there, I'd say gradually rapidly toward hydrogen.


Electrics aren't the answer.

I thought war wasn't the answer?

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Xequecal
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:51 am 
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Müs wrote:
Rodahn wrote:
From there, I'd say gradually rapidly toward hydrogen.


Electrics aren't the answer.


Hydrogen has the same energy density problem as electrics, in addition to being virtually impossible to keep contained. Binding it to an inert carrier just makes the density problem even worse. The only real near-term solution that exists is to use abundant energy from things like nuclear power to manufacture more petroleum. This doesn't bode well for the environment.
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Arathain Kelvar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:03 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
And instead, large plants have transmission loss issues. How significant they are in comparison isn't my expertise, but let's be fair and fully disclose.

Monte -- so you don't have an issue with keeping coal plants open, then? That's an interesting departure from people I associate you with, if so.


Even if it was a wash in terms of power in vs power out between the grid and the gas burning engine, it would still be a good idea to move the power demand to the grid. It converts non-point sources of pollution to point sources, which are easier to maintain, cheaper to upgrade, and cheaper to increase efficiencies. It’s pretty much impossible to increase the efficiency of all of the cars in a state, but much easier to upgrade plants. Furthermore, you could add cleaner sources to the grid relatively easily (nuclear, wind, etc). Lastly, the infrastructure to support point sources is much cheaper and less environmentally hazardous. Instead of having buried gas tanks at stations all over the country (and these do leak from time to time), you have infrastructure at localized points (railroads for coal, etc) that can be more closely monitored, maintained, and regulated.

So, while it’s certainly important to increase the efficiency of vehicles as well, moving vehicles to the grid has value in and of itself.
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