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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:18 am 
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I'm not disagreeing. There's major infrastructure work to be done to do so, though, that needs to be factored in, as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:52 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:

Monte -- so you don't have an issue with keeping coal plants open, then? That's an interesting departure from people I associate you with, if so.


Ideally, no. I'd love to see coal and other fossil fuels go the way of the dodo. But that's an ideal, and very rarely do you get to see an ideal become reality, if ever.

So, if electric cars were easier on the environment, I'm all for it. If nuclear power can make it a reality, and the environmental damage from waste is mitigated (which it mostly is, at present), I'm all for it. If we can generate the power via wind and solar - I'm there.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:01 am 
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Monte wrote:
If we can generate the power via wind and solar - I'm there.
Why the support for systems that create near immediate and easily documented environmental damage? Solar farms are horrible for their local ecosystems.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:25 am 
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Khross wrote:
Monte wrote:
If we can generate the power via wind and solar - I'm there.
Why the support for systems that create near immediate and easily documented environmental damage? Solar farms are horrible for their local ecosystems.


Because wind and solar cause substantially less local damage than coal and, assuming you accept the general consensus on climate change, vastly less global damage.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:42 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
...you accept the general consensus on climate change, vastly less global damage.


Why would you even state that assumption to Khross? I think you know that'll just divert the thread for 4 pages and everyone will get called a shill.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:54 am 
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*chuckle* Probably true, but I'm just answering his question. Concerns over climate change are a significant factor for virtually everyone who advocates switching to solar and wind energy.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:07 am 
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RangerDave:

For this post, and only this post, I'll accept your global consensus. Now, tell me why it's prudent to make drastic changes in economic and energy policy in the pursuit of preventing incalculable and unknown global damage? Moreover, tell me why we should pursue mitigating said global impacts by increasing local environmental damage or ignoring known and reversible man-made environment damage, such as Urban Heat Islands in Colorado and the depletion of the American Long Leaf Pine Forrest?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:19 am 
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Khross wrote:
Moreover, tell me why we should pursue mitigating said global impacts by increasing local environmental damage or ignoring known and reversible man-made environment damage, such as Urban Heat Islands in Colorado and the depletion of the American Long Leaf Pine Forrest?


False dillema. Alternative energy production need not be in sensitive environmental areas. A balance must be drawn, obviously. Energy is needed, and local environmental damage will occur regardless of the type of manufacture. It is also not simply the case the coal causes global but no local environmental damage. Coal mining causes tremendous local environmental damage.

Before:
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After: Image

So no matter what, be it wind, solar, coal, hydroelectric, nuclear, whatever - significant local environmental damage will occur.


Last edited by Arathain Kelvar on Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:26 am 
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Khross wrote:
Now, tell me why it's prudent to make drastic changes in economic and energy policy in the pursuit of preventing incalculable and unknown global damage?

Well, because the consensus view of climate change that I accept includes a variety of negative probable effects (sea level rise, habitat loss, species extinctions, crop damage, etc.) and disastrous possible effects. So although the precise impact is unknown, the range of likely possibilities is bad enough to justify significant changes in behavior. Now, I personally prefer a more gradual approach to change than many on the environmental left, precisely because of the uncertain nature of the predictions, but given that I do accept that the IPCC view is probably in the ballpark, so to speak, total inaction seems like wishful thinking to me.

Khross wrote:
Moreover, tell me why we should pursue mitigating said global impacts by increasing local environmental damage or ignoring known and reversible man-made environment damage, such as Urban Heat Islands in Colorado and the depletion of the American Long Leaf Pine Forrest?

Regarding local damage, like I said, converting from coal and gas to solar and wind (to the extent possible) would involve a significant net reduction in such damage, so I don't see a problem there. And as for reversing other man-made damage, I'm all for doing that too. I don't see any reason the two approaches would be mutually exclusive.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:29 am 
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Before electric cars can really be viable, we need to develop a grid that's capable of transmitting electric power over the air at a large range. We already know how to transmit electric power through an insulator - our power transmission has been based around it since the early 1900s with the development of the transformer. We have wireless HD TVs already, so the technology is being explored heavily at the moment. At the expo where the technology was announced, designs were shown for placing a mat on the floor of your garage to generate a similar magnetic field to charge up the battery of a hybrid-electric car.

It would be a rather costly expense to upgrade our entire grid to incorporate the same technology, not to mention it requires several more years of R&D to implement it. It's also important to note that our grid is antiquated, and needs to be upgraded anyway. Also, some of the expense of shifting to a wireless grid would be mitigated by not having to wire extra plugs and outlets into parking lots to allow people to charge their cars (which in a lot of cases requires drilling through concrete to place lines, and then pouring new concrete). If the entire grid incorporated wireless generators, we would remove the need for a battery that costs 25-30% of the cost of the car. You wouldn't need to store electrical energy, you would just pull it off of the grid.

Furthermore, a wireless grid has other applications outside of civilian transportation. I can think of a number of conveniences it brings to construction. Small electronic devices such as ipods, calculators, cellular phones, TV remotes, alarm clocks, and such - things that generally operate in close proximity to an electrical outlet, but that a power cable would be inconvenient for - no longer require batteries. This means less environmental waste. Moreover, batteries are absolutely terrible for efficiency. The best batteries are more expensive by orders of magnitude than the shittiest grid power on the planet. Wireless power is not going to replace wired power, but the benefits it would bring would outweigh the associated costs to implement.

Unlike, say, coal vs. wind/solar, we don't have to get into things like trying to convince people that global climate change is being caused by humans in order to convince them that wireless power is a good idea. Our whole case doesn't hinge on one idea that a substantial segment of the population doesn't buy into.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:29 am 
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I'm all for it. I think the Chevy Volt is the most promising electric car in a long time. I say this, because with other electric cars I've seen, like the Leaf, it would be impossible to take long distance trips without extensive stops to recharge the battery. The Volt, however, has the gas engine on-board, to recharge the battery as you drive.

I've heard that the old batteries can be used by power companies to store extra power during non-peak times.

And even with dirty coal powered plants, the reduction in pollution would be significant. It isn't just a matter of shifting the pollution around.

And the price of a battery will be significantly cheaper 10 years from now, if these cars take off. Economies of scale, and advances in battery technology.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:34 am 
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Until power companies can figure out how to get paid for delivering power in a wireless fashion of a scale you suggest Corolinth, its not going to happen at any large scale.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:38 am 
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My uncle-in-law has a Tesla. I haven't heard any complaints. A bit out of the normal budget though.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:40 am 
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That isn't as big an obstacle as you might think. The magnetic field that provides wireless power is produced by a generator that is plugged into the wired grid. It would take about a week to figure out how you want to collect money from the city.

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Last edited by Corolinth on Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:40 am 
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http://ricochet.com/conversations/Manma ... e-Solution


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Manmade Global Warming: The Solution

Pat Sajak · Jul. 25 at 11:49am

Manmade global warming, like so many other social and economic issues, has become hopelessly politicized. Each side has dug in its heels and has accused the other of acting irresponsibly and dishonestly. For the believers, the other side has become the equivalent of Holocaust deniers; and for the doubters, the other side has become a cult intent on manipulating mankind to remake the world in some sort of natural Utopian image.

The divide has become so great, it seems virtually impossible to bridge the gap. However, I’m not writing for Ricochet merely to outline problems; I’m here to offer real solutions. And I’m not just blowing carbon dioxide.

Let’s assume that a third of the world’s population really believes mankind has the power to adjust the Earth’s thermostat through lifestyle decisions. The percentage may be higher or lower, but, for the sake of this exercise, let’s put it at one-third. Now it seems to me these people have a special obligation to change their lives dramatically because they truly believe catastrophe lies ahead if they don’t. The other two-thirds are merely ignorant, so they can hardly be blamed for their actions.

Now, if those True Believers would give up their cars and big homes and truly change the way they live, I can’t imagine that there wouldn’t be some measurable impact on the Earth in just a few short years. I’m not talking about recycling Evian bottles, but truly simplifying their lives. Even if you were, say, a former Vice President, you would give up extra homes and jets and limos. I see communes with organic farms and lives freed from polluting technology.

Then, when the rest of us saw the results of their actions—you know, the earth cooling, oceans lowering, polar bears frolicking and glaciers growing—we would see the error of our ways and join the crusade voluntarily and enthusiastically.

How about it? Why wait for governments to change us? You who have already seen the light have it within your grasp to act in concert with each other and change the world forever. And I hate to be a scold, but you have a special obligation to do it because you believe it so strongly. Then, instead of looking at isolated tree rings and computer models, you’d have real results to point to, and even the skeptics would see the error of their ways and join you.

So start Tweeting each other and get the ball rolling. We’ll anxiously await results. See, I told you I had the solution. My work here is done.


More from Pat Sajak


In other words you first, or put your money where the hot air is coming out of your mouth.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:47 am 
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I don't listen to Pat Sajak. You play his game, it's only a matter of time till you end up bankrupt.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:48 am 
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UF, out of curiosity, what exactly is the argument being made in that article? What is it you find persuasive or convincing, and what is it persuading/convincing you of?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:51 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
UF, out of curiosity, what exactly is the argument being made in that article? What is it you find persuasive or convincing, and what is it persuading/convincing you of?


It's pretty clear, isn't it?

"True believers" in the "devasting effects" of HIGCC are not only not walking the walk, but if they were the skeptics would have clear evidence and would fall in line as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:15 pm 
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I haven't heard a whole lot of global warming types suggest we live in communes. They are walking the walk, in general, in that they are doing what they are asking of others.

With a few high profile and notable exceptions, of course.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:18 pm 
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"True believers" is just a way of smearing people that look at the vast majority of evidence and make a rational conclusion. The opposite side of the HIGCC takes a leap of faith.

Anywho - people who support climate change not immediately moving out of their homes and into some sort of commune does not in fact debunk the science.

Most people I know do what the can within their means to live a more sustainable lifestyle. Myself included. We own a fuel efficient car, we recycle glass, metal, and plastic, we have a compost set up for organic trash, and if we could get anything to **** grow in our yard, we would start supplying our own veggies in a sustainable fashion.

However, just because I don't have solar panels on my roof doesn't mean it's not a good idea for us to make a major shift in this country towards renewable energy.

I look at the horrible damage done to the Gulf of Mexico, damage caused by the race to the bottom line and the ever present need for business to **** everyone else over so they can make a slightly bigger profit margin, and I think to myself - if that were a wind farm, there wouldn't be any spill at all.

Billions in economic damage would have been avoided. Priceless ecological damage would have been avoided. Entire industries would still be chugging along. I could feel comfortable buying freaking shrimp again.

But no. It's more important that oil tycoons make a buck. It's more important that we let the so-called liberty of the free market reign supreme, regardless of the harm these free marketeers do to everyone and everything around them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:31 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
Moreover, tell me why we should pursue mitigating said global impacts by increasing local environmental damage or ignoring known and reversible man-made environment damage, such as Urban Heat Islands in Colorado and the depletion of the American Long Leaf Pine Forrest?
False dillema. Alternative energy production need not be in sensitive environmental areas. A balance must be drawn, obviously. Energy is needed, and local environmental damage will occur regardless of the type of manufacture. It is also not simply the case the coal causes global but no local environmental damage. Coal mining causes tremendous local environmental damage.
It's not a false dilemma, actually. Current policy is pursuing carbon taxes and non-viable energy sources in lieu of solving solvable problems. We can do things about Urban Heat Islands in Colorado. We can do things about deforestation in the South Eastern United States. Instead, the solutions we're considering and proposing merely increase long term damage and promote different sorts of immediate and global changes in the environment. At what point does that become the prudent solution?
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
So no matter what, be it wind, solar, coal, hydroelectric, nuclear, whatever - significant local environmental damage will occur.
And the aggregation of that damage is global environmental damage. Consequently, the current policies do not provide a solution to the problem they are proposing to fix. Practical and practicable conservation is the first step in a long chain of events that need to occur. Research and understanding also need to expand. That said, solar farms and wind farms are not immediately viable alternatives. They have their own complications and in some cases worse impacts than in place methods. Ecological restoration has to play a part in the process, or we are merely treating the environment like we treat the economy: as a problem we can delay but not fix.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Khross wrote:
That said, solar farms and wind farms...have their own complications and in some cases worse impacts than in place methods.


Can you elaborate on this point, Khross? I'm not aware of any environmental impacts from wind and/or solar that are even close to the damage caused by coal and gas operations.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:56 pm 
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Khross wrote:
It's not a false dilemma, actually. Current policy is pursuing carbon taxes and non-viable energy sources in lieu of solving solvable problems. We can do things about Urban Heat Islands in Colorado. We can do things about deforestation in the South Eastern United States. Instead, the solutions we're considering and proposing merely increase long term damage and promote different sorts of immediate and global changes in the environment. At what point does that become the prudent solution?


And here you present another false dilemma. We can do things about heat islands, so let's do them. The global policies do not require that the items you mention are ignored. We can do more than one task at a time.

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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
So no matter what, be it wind, solar, coal, hydroelectric, nuclear, whatever - significant local environmental damage will occur.
And the aggregation of that damage is global environmental damage. Consequently, the current policies do not provide a solution to the problem they are proposing to fix. Practical and practicable conservation is the first step in a long chain of events that need to occur. Research and understanding also need to expand. That said, solar farms and wind farms are not immediately viable alternatives. They have their own complications and in some cases worse impacts than in place methods. Ecological restoration has to play a part in the process, or we are merely treating the environment like we treat the economy: as a problem we can delay but not fix.


With this, I largely agree (though I'm not even sure what all the current policies are, so who knows on that one). However, what I disagree with, is the assertion that moving to alternative energy will cause any more local environmental damage than current policies. It won't.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:56 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Khross wrote:
That said, solar farms and wind farms...have their own complications and in some cases worse impacts than in place methods.


Can you elaborate on this point, Khross? I'm not aware of any environmental impacts from wind and/or solar that are even close to the damage caused by coal and gas operations.


Nothing is worse locally than hydroelectric.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
However, what I disagree with, is the assertion that moving to alternative energy will cause any more local environmental damage than current policies. It won't.

I wonder if Khross' statement was looking at the combined impact, of what we current use for power generation (coal mines, etc), which won't go away over night, or at all in some cases, and then adding into that impacted area the needed acreage to support wind farms and solar farms.

Anyone know how big either of those need to be in acreage to match the power generation of a typical low e coal plant?


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