The Glade 4.0

In what way did "we" (since it's not the least bit clear who "we" is) "outright lie" to the Japanese at Versailles?

Regardless, that's hardly any reason why we shouldn't have fought them after they attacked us. "Oh, well we did something to make them made over 20 years earlier; it's therefore perfectly ok if they sink our battleships and send our soldiers on death marches." That's also in light of the transfer of Shadong to Japan rather than back to China; if anyone really had a legitimate beef at Versailles it would be China.

Come one; I know that's not really what you mean but it comes across that way when you address the issue in that fashion.

As for agreements about Naval power, the Japanese got a pretty sweet deal on that. Not only did they just cheat like crazy on the construction of the Yamatos and Mogamis, but the tonnage ratio was highly favorable.

The British had 3 oceans that they needed to concern themselves with compared to 2 for the U.S. and one for Japan. This meant that whiel Japan on paper had a 5:3 disadvantage against either Western power, in reality they had a 3:2.5 advantage over the U.S. and a 3:1.67 advantge over Britain. This is exacerbated by the inclusion of the Australian, Canadian, and New Zealand navies as part of the British total. Even combining the U.S. and British portions, that's a tonnage advantage of 5:4.3 in favor of Japan.

Moreover, the fact that the U.S. and Britain needed to devote more tonnage to fuel space gave the Japanese an advantage in design; they did not need to design capacity for global transit fuel loads into their ships as the U.S. and Britain did. Even if the fuel load itself is not counted towards the tonnage limit, the larger fuel tanks still demand greater structural size and weight towards accomadating them.

That short-range design was a liability for Bismark, but Bismark lacked aircraft carriers to protect it or a fuel tender, and lacked any meaningful escort as well. For the Japanese, that's far less of a problem.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Diamondeye:

I think the word "should" confuses you. In fact, I'm not even talking about the Naval Fleet rules for the Treaty of Versailles. I'm simply talking about the fact we prohibited them from being represented by themselves in the actual negotiation. It's just one of those things ...

We should not have insulted them so egregiously. It doesn't mean we didn't. It doesn't mean we can or should even endeavour to change the things that happened. It simply means that in an ideal world we should not have insulted the Japanese.

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Hell, for that matter, it would have been a lot more intelligent not to insult the Germans at Versailles as well.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Well, I'm trying to avoid discussing that particular issue at the moment, because it provides some curious insight into another topic of frequent debate: John Maynard Keynes.

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Got it.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

That relates to the comment I made about the 1922 Naval treaty, that pressured Japan to give the land back to China, after it was given to Japan in an agreement with the those crafting the Versailles treaty. China was pissed, and it led to the March in their country as well as a separate treaty with Germany to end the war, but Japan was equally pissed a few years later.

That, and I suspect the biggest insult was related to the racial bias vote for the League of Nations, where the vote was 11-0 in support of Japan's proposal, yet Woodrow Wilson overturned the result and invalidated the vote.



I almost brought his book on the subject up, so I'm curious why you hesitate to mention it.

OK, again, who exactly is "We"? Is it the United States? The Western portion of the WWII allies (i.e. the U.S., France, and Britain)? All the other allies? France/and or Britain without the U.S. or other allies?



Again, all this is meaningless without defining "we", and in any case, is hardly relevant to the question of whether we should have fought in WWII after we were attacked.

It should also be pointed out that we did not exclued Japanese leaders; rather, they chose to leave after initially being part of the negotiations, and they were not the only nation to do so

Treaty of Vesailles



Moreover, Japan contributed relatively little to the overall war effort beyond taking German posessions in China and the PAcific and driving the German Asiatic squadron into the Atlantic where the British destroyed it. In return, they got several German posessions, especially the Chinese ones, and a permanent seat on the League of Nations council. It's hard to see any insult to Japan as terribly severe in view of the relative amount of damage inflicted on France and Russia (who admittedly were not participants either) or even compared to the casualties suffered by Britain or even the U.S.

Indeed, Japan's war participation was limited to the naval events of 1914 and taking German colonies, some escort assistance to the British in 1917, and in securing for itself various forms of control over China.

Japan may indeed have felt insulted by the details of the proceedings and the fact that the "Big Three" ended up in control of Versailles at the end, but in practical terms they had little to complain about.

As an aside, the naval rules for Versailles were aimed almost entirely at Germany. The major limitations on other powers came from the later Washington and London treaties, although these were obviously at least partly an outgrowth of Versailles.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Indeed. The entire end of WWI was a giant mess, and in point of fact we never even ratified Versailes ourselves and ended the war formally by act of Congress in 1921.



I'm not familiar with this vote; however I have read and heard some things that indicate Wilson was a fairly racist individual despite his supposedly progressive ideas. I have little regard for Wilson in general. It would not surprise me to learn that he did such a thing.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Diamondeye:

You're not posting anything I don't know or haven't read. In fact, I think you're distinctly over thinking my comments on the matter.

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Edited for accuracy.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Entirely possible, but you haven't really explained who "we" is yet, or what it has to do with fighting WWII, which seems to be where this entire tangent started from.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

The "we" doesn't matter. World War II doesn't really matter. Think broader and then chuckle to yourself.

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I have no idea what you're talking about.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I'm not alone! Lets start a newsletter DE.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Captain America != Captain Government

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Hokanu
Duty is a magnificent blessing because it is the sign of trust from the universe.
END OF LINE.

Question: If you strongly oppose the American government, disdain much of American culture, and think most American people are some combination of ignorant and immoral, can you still credibly claim to love America? If so, what is it you love?

Why don't you answer those questions first?

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I only strongly oppose the first of those three RD

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Got me here, this is my issue.

I like American culture, I have disdain for the people that come and insist that we must let their foreign cultures rule the US

They are, the bulk of the American public is a bunch of ignorant twats that feel entitled to making others miserable.


Yes you can. And here is how. We have a country which was supposed to be based on personal freedom, without causing harm ot our fellow citizens. And I am perfectly entitled to think that American Culture is ****, with morons and whores at the helm... Run by a bunch of cockstain douchebags who would sell their own mothers into prostitution. As long as I do not harm others.... This country is supposed to allow me the freedom to feel however the **** I want to.

RD, you could be a sociopathic pyromaniac who enjoys lighting fires and then setting your wang in it until blisters form. I do not have to like that, or even like you... but as long as you are not burdening others or forcing your belief on others... that is your business not mine.

That is what there is to love about America. That is what I feel troops have risked their lives and died for. Is to keep us free enough to love, hate or feel however we want to without harming others.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

The more I socialize with those from other continents, the more comfortable I am with the notion of Americans as ignorant and rude.

...cause man, so is everyone else. Especially racist! I had some white guilt going on with America and racism. This idea has been banished. Not that we have a clean track record, but at least most of us are ashamed by it. Asians especially seem quite ok with it. :p

This!! Crude as it is, I agree with DS!!! (Yes, I know, I've used some pretty bad language myself )

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"Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use one!"~ Matthew Quigley

"nothing like a little meow in bed at night" ~ Bruskey

"I gotta float my stick same as you" Hondo Lane

"Fill your hand you son of a *****!"

Thank you. I was aiming for crude, honestly. But hey... I am one of those immoral morons and whores.

RangerDave: My above comment is not to be taken as I do not like you. I am giving it as an example, you were used since I was replying to you. I may not see eye to eye with you on things, but I really do not have time in my life to completely anymore people than I already do.

I am a douchebag and I approve of this message!

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

I can't believe you guys are letting RangerDave troll you like this. He's repeatedly stated he doesn't have time to engage in serious debate or discussion on these subjects. So, until he answers those questions in good faith, don't respond to them.

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^this

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In time, this too shall pass.

<--- that

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