The Glade 4.0

Actually, I'm all for this now. Just like I'm going to be all for the guy who opens up a BBQ joint right across the street or a kennel next door.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Depends Night Fox, how good a BBQ cook are you? I want a good pulled pork sandwhich.

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Let's build a national memorial on the site, Washington DC style. Throw a statue of Giuliani and Dubya up there as the victors in the conflict that site spurred, and as the leaders who inspired the city and the nation to band together and save lives, clean up, and rebuild.

Then, let's have three wings on the damn memorial; a non-denominational Christian prayer area (with crosses and other non-denominational symbols), a Jewish prayer area, an Islamic prayer area, and, hell, throw a fourth one in there as a "meditation chamber" or whatever for the atheists if you like.

Then, deny a building permit to the Muslim community center at that location, and instead offer one elsewhere.

That's the way to figure out the motives of these guys. If they just want to build a community center and mend bridges here in America, this solution should do both very well. If they're trying to build a monument to their conquest of America's spirit, then this solution will gall them, grate them, and they'll object. And, honestly, a single site that truly reaches out to all faiths like this would be a much better symbol of the tolerance and willingness we in America have to work together for peace than a unilateral Muslim Community Center.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Kaf you insensitive white male you! There needs to be specific sub memorials to each specific victim category. There needs to be a Gay victim memorial cove, a specific woman's victim memorial, an African American victim memorial, a female African American GLBT (one may have I died I don't know) a Asian victims cube, and one for the physically and mentally disabled victims. One a tiny walk in closet for white male victimizers...I mean victims.

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Meh. I'm trying to care about this, but I just don't. Build the mosque, I don't give a ****.

^^ If I understand correctly it is a block or two away from the site. If it was on the site I might give a crap.

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I have two words for you on the mosque's competitor for space....

Strip Club

Really though... I personally do not give a ****. Leave it to a vote to the people who live in New York. If THEY are okay with it... everyone else, both supporters and retractors can eat a bag of monkey wang.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Isn't that where several of the terrorists of the 911 flights spent their last evening?

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History of the Condom
In 1272, the Muslim Arabs invented the condom, using a goat's lower intestine.
In 1873, the British somewhat refined the idea, by taking the intestine out of the goat first.

You know, I'm kind of with you on this. If this group wants to build a Mosque on that particular of real estate, I will not stop them. It is their money; their investment; their time. That said, it is a profoundly tactless thing to do. They may not be extremists; they may not support Al Qaeda or the Terrorist Group of the Month. And, I'm perfectly willing to take the group at face value on that issue. But the truth remains that it is a fundamentally tactless and inappropriate location for a Mosque or Islamic Community Center. 3000 people died because a bunch of lunatic extremists, who happened to be Muslims, decided to crash some hijacked aircraft into the Twin Towers. A more appropriate location can be found.

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Khross and 'Sky speak truth.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I'm honestly surprised to hear that you feel this way, FarSky. The only way that sentiment makes sense is if all Muslims (and indeed, Islam itself) are somehow implicated by the 9/11 attack. Obviously they're not, so any negative associations that get triggered for people are just the result of irrational prejudices.

Didn't you support the apology from one of the states (Virginia?) on behalf of its citizens to the african-americans for slavery?

I'm with Skee (GOOMH!) on this one. Just because not all Muslims are responsible for the attacks on the Twin Towers doesn't mean that the site, and the memory, is not now forever indelibly linked with the darkest and most hateful practitioners of the religion. It's not a site that I would like to allow to be conflated with the non-violent practice of my religion, were I Muslim, at least for many, many years to come.

I would argue that sites dedicated to the harmony of Islam with others, such as I suggested for a multi-faith memorial, carry a unique symbolism of their own that would override such a conflation, and would be the way to counteract and push against that "taint," as Farskee put it.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

No, I supported (or rather, didn't object to) an apology from the State of Virginia on behalf of the State of Virginia, which is very different than an apology on behalf of its citizens.

I'm sure he, and many who feel the same way (including myself) would have the same thing to say about the flying of the Confederate flag. There's no reason it should not be allowed, but in an effort to "make nice" it might be considerate not to do it where it is certain to cause offense.
It's tact RD, you know, not doing things that will offend people in an effort to - not offend people. I know many go on and on about "you don't have a right not to be offended", but when people are acting in a civil manner, they make an effort not to offend people.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Do you feel Muslims would go all warm and fuzzy if folks wanted to build a church in Mecca?

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In time, this too shall pass.

If only those that don't follow Islam were actually allowed inside Mecca.

Cool! That's brilliant!

We just bar Muslims from entering NY City, problem solved!

I want YOU for president, Mr. Ladas, sir!

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In time, this too shall pass.

Which Muslims?

And why should the retrograde bigotries of fundamentalists be relevant to my own moral compass?

I believe its referring to the laws of an entire nation, about only muslims may go to Mecca, infidels get to die if they do.

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

I'll have to pass. I'm terrible at golf, and that much vacation time would seriously impede my ability to get my job done.

*snicker*

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Except that building the mosque at that particular site gives the distinct impression of confirming those predjudices and making them a lot less irrational.

Like I pointed out, either the muslims doing this are amazingly naive, amazingly insensitive, or far less moderate than they claim.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Because they are perfectly willing to use your moral compass as a weapon against you.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Only if you already have such prejudices - that is, only if you conflate, to some degree, all Muslims with terrorists and thus think it's reasonable to perceive the construction of a mosque near the WTC site as some kind of victory dance by, or at the very least a disturbing reminder of, people associated with 9/11. On the other hand, if you don't have those prejudices, then a Muslim group building a Mosque near the WTC site, and non-Muslim New Yorkers and Americans embracing that, is a perfect counterpoint to the hateful, divisive attitudes that motivate al-Qaeda.


Except in this case, they're using our prejudices and fears, not our morality, against us. Al-Qaeda wants a clash of civilizations; they want to define the conflict as a holy war between Islam and the US/West. It's in our strategic interest to deny them that propaganda victory and instead define the conflict as what it is - peaceful, free, civilized people of all faiths against a specific group of ignorant, hate-filled murderers. Making a big stink in opposition to this mosque plays into al-Qaeda's preferred narrative, while supporting the mosque's construction does exactly the opposite.