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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I find it interesting that people that normally place a high value on personal responsibility think that such responsibility is not essential to the soldier.


The soldier's responsibility is to fight the enemy in accordance with the military law of his country. Military law applies during both peace and war, and there is no obligation on the part of any country to make their military law conform to any standard. The only reasons to do so are for political gain with other nations and the demands of their own citizens.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:13 pm 
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Monte wrote:
That's like saying that armed robbery should not be prosecuted because armed robbery is an ugly, violent act.


That in turn is like saying war itself is a crime. People who believe war is a crime, or always wrong are beyond the pale. This is the sign of an utterly worthless human being whose continued existance should only be tolerated out of respect for the dangers of killing people over their beliefs. It is the most immoral, appalling viewpoint a person can hold, willing to tolerate any sort of evil lest they dirty their own lilly-white hands.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:27 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:36 pm 
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War! Huh! War! What's it good for?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:36 am 
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Monte wrote:
I find it interesting that people that normally place a high value on personal responsibility think that such responsibility is not essential to the soldier.

There is no glory or honor to be had in war. Don't buy into the hype. It's a good an well when you're a wealthy knight, but it's usually the peon's blood and tears spilt for the "honor" of others.

Also, would you consider civilian casualties in an unconstitutional war a war crime?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:22 am 
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Wwen wrote:
Monte wrote:
I find it interesting that people that normally place a high value on personal responsibility think that such responsibility is not essential to the soldier.

There is no glory or honor to be had in war. Don't buy into the hype. It's a good an well when you're a wealthy knight, but it's usually the peon's blood and tears spilt for the "honor" of others.

Also, would you consider civilian casualties in an unconstitutional war a war crime?


Of course he would. Monty considers almost anything a war crime. However there is no such thing as an unConstitutional war. The Constitution does not require a declaration of war for the President to order the military to engage in operations of any kind. (It does, however, require that Congress give him the money beyond what they've already voted for the military, if any is needed, which it certainly would be). That is something that the Founders really should have corrected, but they didn't.

It should be pointed out that the War Powers Act limits military actions longer than 90 days to those authorized by Congres, but the Constitutionality of that law is disputed and has never been tested in court. Personally, I feel that there ought to be a Constitutional ammendment that requires Congressional authorization for military actions other than A) defense of U.S. territory, B) rescue or defense of U.S. citizens C) actions on the high seas (i.e. international waters) not involving attacks against any nation's territory D) self-defense by U.S. forces coming directly under attack or E) actions other than the above longer than 30 days, including humanitarian operations. This would allow us to retire the obsolete concept of "declaring war", which is different from "authorizing use of force" only in emotional impact, and would eliminate any question as to whether the President needs Congressional authorization.

The President should not be limited in his ability to act when the United States or its people or forces come directly under attack, nor should Congress be allowed to dither away our strategic position in the event of a truely major war. In fact, in a truely major war most or all of Congress could be destroyed before they can do anything. We also should not tolerate interference with the free use of international waters and airspace. That said, the President should not have 90 days to get us into a mess and then put political pressure on Congress to support the troops and create Constitutional battles that could last years in court.

We need a top-down tranformation to return military power to a truely strategic option (not strategic as in nuclear exclusively, but as in element of national strategy) rather than as an option for political tactical maneuvering. We spend too much on defense for the amount of defense we're getting; we could have a better military for the same or less money with some much-needed reforms to put more limits on things like Haiti, Somalia, Bosnia, and other minor activities and to make Congress truely commit and share responsibility in things like Iraq and Afghanistan rather than voting money to "support the troops" then sitting back and pretending that whatever happens is all the administrations' fault, regardless of which party is administrating.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Wwen wrote:
There is no glory or honor to be had in war. Don't buy into the hype.


I said nothing about glory. However, there are plenty of soldiers that serve with honor and maintain the law of war in the face of great adversity.

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Also, would you consider civilian casualties in an unconstitutional war a war crime?


War Crimes are pretty clearly laid out in international law. I certainly feel the invasion of Iraq was a crime, which I lay entirely at the feet of the administration that put us there.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:28 pm 
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Monte wrote:
international law.


Such law is only valid to the country violating it if that country signed the treaty that ratified the law. (And then a country can still pull out of said treaty.) There exists no worldwide body with authority to declare what is or is not law for other sovereign countries.

As a side note, i have no idea which international treaties the USA may or may not have signed that might render the war in Iraq illegal. However, the USA is not beholden to any other country, or responsible to them for any such legalities. Treaty holds its own place in the heirarchy of American law (above laws made by congress, but below the constitution, if I recall), so any possible violations of "International Law" that America may have signed would essentially then be violations of American law. This is the only way that "International Law" holds any legal standing in America.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:46 pm 
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Article VI - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths wrote:
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
The wording does not stipulate a heirarchy between the Constitution, United States law, and treaties to which the United States is signatory. The order suggests that the Constitution holds primacy, followed by United States law, and then signed treaties. A particularly interesting clause follows, suggesting that signed treaties shall be the supreme law of the land despite contradicting statements in the Constitution itself, but that clause also establishes that the Constitution itself is the supreme law of the land despite any potential contradictory statements elsewhere in the Constitution.

Another item of note is that Article VI specifies that treaties must be made under the authority of the United States to be recognized in such a fashion. This would seem to imply that in order to be held as a supreme law of the land, any treaty would have to be accepted according to the same procedures for passing other laws.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:24 pm 
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I've always understood that clause to essentially mean that international treaties are equal in weight to constitutional law.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:50 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I've always understood that clause to essentially mean that international treaties are equal in weight to constitutional law.


They can't be. That would mean that the Federal government could amend the Constitution by making a treaty. Since treaties are not mentioned as a way to amend the Constitution in the pertinent section, they necessarily must be subordinate.

The only reason you think that is because you're in love with a lot of idiotic treaties.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:59 pm 
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In war, the goal for the guy in the boots is to keep the other guy from killing him, and that usually means killing the other guy first. War crimes rarely happen on the battlefield, they almost always happen off the battlefield, usually dealing with the slaughter or torture or criminal abuse of civilians or prisoners. Looting and senseless or unnecessary destruction can also qualify.

Do not confuse war crimes with battle. They are two very different things.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:24 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Monte wrote:
I've always understood that clause to essentially mean that international treaties are equal in weight to constitutional law.


They can't be. That would mean that the Federal government could amend the Constitution by making a treaty.


*headscratch*

No it doesn't. It means that when our government signs a treaty, it binds us to the law it signed at a very high level. I don't see anything wrong with that, given that treaties require congressional approval.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:55 pm 
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Monte:

Can a Treaty entered into by the United States legally accomplish something which is otherwise unConstitutional, such as limit US sovereignty?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:01 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Monte:

Can a Treaty entered into by the United States legally accomplish something which is otherwise unConstitutional, such as limit US sovereignty?


What portion of the constitution states that congress shall do nothing to limit US soverignty? Subjecting ourselves to international law is not, to my knowledge, specifically limited by the constitution.

(And please, please please don't interpret this question as a position in favor of some sort of crazed UN government conspiracy)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:07 pm 
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My Cherokee ancestors would laugh at you for believing any treaty the United States signs has any validity whatsoever.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:15 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Monte:

Can a Treaty entered into by the United States legally accomplish something which is otherwise unConstitutional, such as limit US sovereignty?


What portion of the constitution states that congress shall do nothing to limit US soverignty? Subjecting ourselves to international law is not, to my knowledge, specifically limited by the constitution.

(And please, please please don't interpret this question as a position in favor of some sort of crazed UN government conspiracy)



The power to tax, for instance.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:41 pm 
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The power to tax is explicitly given in the 16th amendment.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Monte wrote:
The power to tax is explicitly given in the 16th amendment.


Yes, it is, but that isn't what we are talking about. Who does the Constitution give the power to tax to?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:49 pm 
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Congress.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:55 pm 
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So, what of international treaties which give the power of taxation to bodies other than congress?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Is that something that's even on the table at present?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:24 pm 
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We should certainly have a trial. The situation should be looked at, examined and guilt or innocence determined. Acting under orders could be an affirmative defense in such a trial to be sure. If it applies to the individual case should be determined by the governing tribal/jury/etc.

In Monte's example, the man doesn't seem to be acting under any sanctioned orders to rape and murder. He should probably have the whole book thrown at him.

In the holocost example I think its pointless to try every buck private serving in concentration camps for mass murder. The OT individual should be looked at, and if he did somethings espeically heinous he should be tried for them.

In summary I'll say what I always say in trial threads, each case should be judged on it's own merits. That's why we have trials and juries and the like.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Is that something that's even on the table at present?

Yes, it is. Several UN agencies feel it is necessary to levy taxes on citizens in the member countries as a means to fund whatever program it is they feel needs to be addressed.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:31 pm 
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Really? So, this has come to a vote at some point?

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