The Glade 4.0

Monty doesn't respond to that. He won't even try to answer a good question or he'll attack something unimportant in your post as a smoke screen.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

I do not understand this. I see that Monty has been here since I asked my question, but he has not explained his position, just as you have been saying. Why would someone do that? Make a statement then when questioned about it, not defend or explain the statement? It is baffling.

Yes, it is. My thought is that people who do that would rather their statements be taken as fact, a bare assertion fallacy, rather than provide any basis for the logic used to come to the conclusion stated.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

There re any number of theories on why he does this, but I think that he is so utterly convinced of the rightness of any position that he takes that any position he can't argue against or doesn't want to, he simply thinks doesn't matter anyhow. I think he thinks his positions are so obviously morally correct and unassailable that he just thinks that any argument against them must be nonsense, made only by people who deep down just know he's right but won't admit it. He therefore ultimately dismisses any argument (even when he responds, since his responses almost always amount to a reiteration of his original position albiet sometimes at greater length or with more detail) because he knows deep down that what we're saying must just be bullshit - no matter what.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I know this is just stirring the pot....

So we know Monte thinks that doctors have some sort of requirement to help people without expecting proper compensation...

Let's ask our resident Doctor... SG... do you think Monte is entitled to your time professionally just because he needs a doctor?

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Oh, I'm sorry, new guy. I was visiting my future in laws and didn't have the time to respond to your very important question in the exact time frame you demanded I respond. I shall remember, in the future, to prioritize random Glade poster_007 higher than, say, really good port, teaching a class on 16th century Italian rapier, and a lovely creole meal.

As far as I am concerned, health care is a right, not a privilege of the wealthy and the elected. Just like education is a right. I firmly believe that it's as essential a government service as the military. I don't honestly care if you or anyone else disagrees with me on that subject. I frankly think that our health care system should be entirely nationalized, with state funded hospitals and doctors. Failing that, a single payer system. Failing that, the system we are currently working through with the health care reform passed through congress will have to do, but I hope it gets seriously expanded. But anything that gets us closer to 100% health care coverage, especially for our most needy, is good by me.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Awesome... being a complete **** douchebag to someone who is brand new to the board... you are a dickhead.

I was also wondering why you would answer others who were not as polite to you, and ignore a good natured question. I understand now, it is because you are a *****.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

I kind of feel that this guy was already jumping on the "be a dick to Monte" bandwagon, to be honest. He was certainly being egged on by the other posters here.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

hrm.. maybe that is the case... You would be the expert on jumping on bandwagons.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Generally, I'm the one getting run over by them. If I were the bandwagon type I would not be posting here as a liberal.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

I didn't really think I had demanded anything of you. I just noticed you had been here, but had not responded. Thanks for the explanation, it's all good.

So, let me ask this: If, as a doctor, I refuse to accept any more patients, would you, as a patient, have any expectation that you could sue me for violating your rights and force me to accept you as a patient?

My issue is that I do not understand how anything could be a right, if it requires someone else to provide it for you. If health care is a right you have, then my refusal to accept you as a patient amounts to me violating your rights. Yet I cannot see any possibility that you could bring such a suit and win; it seems to me that trying to force me to treat you violates my rights.

Good good. Sorry to snap at you. This particular forum is generally pretty combative.

You have to understand that, Ideally, I don't think doctors should be in private practice when it comes to health care. I think they should be state employees.

I understand your position, but you really don't get my concept of what rights are. I believe that rights are established and enforced by government. I believe our concept of what constitutes a right evolves over time.

So, I feel every American has a right to an education, and that the government is then obligated to provide an education free of charge to that student. I do not believe a student should be free to sue a person who refuses to teach them. But that doesn't change the fact that I think that a person has a right to an education.

Much like national defense. We all have a right to be protected by our military from foreign invaders. And thus, our government establishes a military to do just that. We all have a right to have our contracts enforced. And thus, our government provides a court system to see that contracts are enforced. I feel that every American has a right to health care from the cradle to the grave, and that the government has an obligation to provide for that health care if we are unable to do so for ourselves.

The details are less important to me. If we have a private health care market, then I believe the government has an obligation to supply people who need insurance with insurance. If we have a public system, then I believe the government should take over that industry and put it in the category of public service, much like the VA hospital system.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Ok, I sorta understand that, but to use your education example: Do you think I should have to pay for your education? And in the same vein, do you think I should have to pay for your medical procedures? Because anything government pays for, it does so by taking money from citizens and giving it to someone else.

So then in cases like California... you think it should be okay to tell a doctor that their time and energy in potentially keeping people alive is only worth the same hourly wage as paying some guy who is having a hard time figuring out if the special sauce goes before the lettuce or after the cheese?

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

That's the best response I've ever seen from Monty... Farther is the chosen one!

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

He is the Kwisatz Haderach!!

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Farther is new here, so he doesn't a lot of baggage from over the years. All he has is his toothbrush and a towel, while most people here have 4-5 bellhops worth of suitcases.

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Dude really? You are not even going to credit him with having a towel? I thought that was a requirement to sign up.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Corrected.

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Monte:

If not enough bright individuals felt compelled to become doctors because the workload and schooling were to tedious and strenuous, and did not exact enough reward as a government employee, and an era of shortages and rationing occurred, would you feel compelled to either:

a) conscript the best and brightest
or,
b) lower the standards of education required to become a doctor?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

And if no one, or not enough, people like that condition and opt not to be come doctors, then what? A draft? Cognitive testing in school with results pegged to pre-directed career paths?

No telling - when freedom isn't a right anymore anything can happen.

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In time, this too shall pass.

You don't have a right to national defense. You have a right to expect that the government will defend the nation as a whole, and in the process will do its best to defend you personally and your property, but defense isn't an individual right. It can't be. What is done to defend the nation is dictated by strategic realities, not by rights.

We have national defense in order to protect rights, but it isn't a right in and of itself. Rather, its means of protecting them, because if someone else rolls in and takes over, it doesn't matter what your rights are or should be.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Well, I really don't want to push any buttons or build up any baggage. I appreciate Monte for his answers so far. And I respect his right to hold those opinions. I hope he won't take it as an attack that I do not agree with his position. It seems logical to me that when "X" can make demands of "Y", then "Y" is less free to some degree or another. For instance, speech is both a freedom and a right because there are no requirements placed on "X" in order for "Y" to exercise his right.

Not so with health care. For "Y" to exercise such a right, there must be a requirement put on "X". Therefore, health care may be defined as a right, but freedom will be lost to make it so. Given a choice between freedom and rights, I choose freedom.

Thank you, Monte, for the back and forth. I appreciate the courtesy.

Who knows... there's always a first time!

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In time, this too shall pass.