The Glade 4.0

If all they did was box, yes. But if that 5'7 guy is say one of the Gracies and it's use your own style to win, if Ali doesn't knock him out before Gracie get's hold of him, Gracie wins easy.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

A jiu-jitsu fighter giving up nearly 100 pounds is going to have a lot of trouble against even a terrible ground fighter.

I think of this a lot when I watch MMA. I'm the 5'7", 155-pound guy who would get crushed. But, back in the old days, so to speak, I watched some Russian guy who looked like a stick drop much bigger guys with his elbows. It was kind of mesmerizing.

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This cold and dark tormented hell
Is all I`ll ever know
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge

Strength and mass are certainly factors in BJJ

Pretty interesting article here on the Wong Jack Man fight:

http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

You should check out some literature about Yukio Tani. Hell, the entire Fusen-Ryu lineage of which Tani was purportedly at least partially descendant from, is a very interesting story. Particularly how it compelled the shape of Judo into incorporating more ne-waza techniques during the time of Mataemon Tanabe.

Try, Blood on the Sun: The Odyssy of Yukio Tani by Graham Noble. Tani was a 125 pound man who defeated many opponents in England for prize money, many of which were security professionals or prize fighters in other arenas themselves.

The interesting aspect of ne-waza is that it puts the human body in an orientation wrt the ground and direction that weight acts in such a way that is counter-intuitive and must be trained. Everything from the direction the body must move, which muscle groups to engage and how to orient the body efficiently so they become the engaging group of muscles and so forth must be trained into muscle memory. Simple things like sitting up, moving sideways on the hips to control space and how to orient the body to gain mobility for the least amount of energy is a science rooted in physics and kinseology.

This fact is where the strategy of Fusen-Ryu developed is rooted and gave them the ability to dominate the Kodokan Judo school at the turn of the 20th century. The strategy being to not engage the opponent where his physical traits and training give him an advantage and place him in a mode of combat where such physical differentials are reduced or even reversed (getting off one's back is much more difficult for a bulky, muscular man for instance) and develop a system of techniques suited for such a mode. Tanabe knew he had a massive advantage in technique knowledge and skill in ne-waza. The result was so decisive, that Kano asked Tanabe to teach his system at the Kodokan itself.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Ali beat Foreman.

Bruce trained way harder than Ali...so hard that one mistake ended up killing him.


back injury...equagesic...cerebral edema...very sad.




"THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!" /jack black off



EDIT: Oh, and it's way harder to hit a smaller guy especially if he's fast and smart, kinda like how it's difficult to punch a fly.

EDIT: Damn these edits and multiple posts, by the time I'm done writing what I want to add I forget to copy it over to the previous post and end up making a new one.







One of the reasons I prefer stand up fighting. It relies too much on strength and mass. In order to get those attributes, you [usually?] end up sacrificing so much more...speed..flexibility...speed....speeeed and speed and power and agility. And speed.

The other reasons....stand up fighting is much more effective versus multiple attackers, and it's safer because you can flee more quickly and you have much more options with other possible threats. Also, I just wouldn't consider training in a way that involves being on the floor embracing another man. It's not homophobic, I just like to stay on my feet and not let any other part of my body touch the ground. Now a woman...I'd wrestle. But only cause I wouldn't want to hurt them! And another reason...






EDIT: Oh, and BJJ sounds waaaay too much like BJ.

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Ron Paul 2012

Stand up fighting very much depends on size and strength as well, just not as much as ground fighting. In a stand up fight you're going to be almost as screwed fighting a guy 80 (hell even 25-30 is a big deal) pounds heavier than you (assuming he's not just a big fatty) as a 135 pound bjj fighter against some 205 pound guy.

Speed and agility is great and all, but all things being (anywhere close to) equal, the bigger guy is going to win.

The good big guy is going to beat the very good small guy most of the time.

Thankfully most big guy's aren't that good. They're just big.

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Ron Paul 2012

Yeah, god help the UFC heavyweight division if Brock Lesnar ever gets good at anything but wrestling...

his name is Brock

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Ron Paul 2012

Oh yeah, here's a good analogy I thought of, for the UFC. The UFC often tends to favor strength and mass.

People win fights in the UFC by getting stronger and bigger the same way that people win fights in old school RPGs (FF7) by grinding 10 levels ahead and then snoozing through the battles.

At least there are weight classes. But even within weight classes, because people train for strength and mass primarily, it kind of takes a lot of the skill aspect out of the game, not to mention the fact that so many effective techniques that make martial arts interesting to me are completely illegal or impractical because of the cage.


Not to mention the abuse of the weigh-in system totally negates the point of having weight classes, in my opinion. And most of the fights in the UFC resort to crawling around on the ground trying to pin an arm or leg. I'd rather watch Boxing.


[youtube]smjPDN49uHo[/youtube]

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Ron Paul 2012

I kind of wish that wrestlers/MMA fighters had to weigh in 5 minutes before the fight, but I'm in the vast minority, I think...

As for boxing, Don King ruined boxing. I can't watch it anymore. Plus there's too many champions in each class. Who cares who the heavyweight champion is when there's 1,500 heavyweight champions...

Yup. Boxers used to weigh in an hour before the fight...I'm not sure how it is now, but if it's anything like it is in the UFC now, it's retarded. Doing the cutting / gaining thing to cheat the weigh-in system is lame. I wish the fighters would just train to be healthy and ready to fight and just end up in whatever weight class they end up in instead of training for strength / mass and cheating the system. They should change it to weigh in just before the fight.

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Ron Paul 2012

As light on his feet and as fast as he could punch, definitely. But the point of this thread was not who is/was the best martial artist ever, but which celebrity outside the martial arts would take down the others.

Muhammad Ali was primarily a martial artist, one of the finest boxers to grace the ring in the twentieth century. He also evolved the art of trash talking promotion to a higher level than ever seen before, but that was part of the martial arts world.

I posed this question to one of my friends at work, he said Jackie Chan, no question - none of those guys could keep a straight face or more importantly their focus once Jackie started making faces and running his comedy routine. Heck, most of them would be asking for his autograph. Jackie gets a lot of love and respect in Hollywood we don't see out here.

I don't know if he's right, but I have to admit comedy is as much a weapon of Chan's as anything else he does.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

The most important elements to ground grappling systems derived from Judo or catch wrestling/shoot and hook styles are primarily timing and deception, not speed or strength. Agility and flexibility are ancillary. By restraining a person's mass to where he must fight his own weight and move in a manner unfamiliar unless trained is entire concept behind putting a combat situation in that phase.

If fleeing is the most effective self defense tactic (and it certainly is), I would propose that parkour is the most effective martial art on the planet.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

This thread isn't about self defense, though, it's about who would "win" a fight. You don't win a fight by avoiding fighting

Actually, that's the best way to win.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

No, it's arguably the best way to survive and situationally the best "defense" but it's not how you "win" a fight.

I win if the fight never occurs. At least, that's how I see it. If I fight, I lose, even if I am victorious. Victory and winning? Not so much the same thing, I think.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

The best way to win a fight is to never leave the house...heck, don't get out of bed. Obviously, Bed-FU is the best martial art ever.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

How very Mr. Miagi of you.

(which isn't to say I disagree at all)

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Miagi had a lot of good **** to say, lol. His quotes are terribly useful in teaching Italian rapier, in fact.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Well of course he had good **** to say, he was a character written by a 20 year practitioner of Goju-Ryu.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

This goes back to my entire point of that premise of the martial art must define how "victory" is attained.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones