The Glade 4.0

That depends. Is the Noodly Appendage book allegorical, in whole or in part? I haven't read it. I doubt very much that I would find it as useful as Genesis in determining anything, but maybe you would. In any case, a bunch of folks wrote the Bible, not Genesis; to my knowledge Genesis had a single author.

I notice you left out "over thousands of years". There's a lot more differences I didn't mention. Come on, you know perfectly well that's not what I'm saying. It's just a strawman.

I don't know why you're focusing on Genesis either. Just because fundamentalists do? Why would you do that? Because you think it's an easier position to attack, so you're projecting it onto me?



No they wouldn't. Are you agreeing with yourself? That's really not necessary.



Yes it is. The term you're looking for is conclusive. It certainly is objective evidence. "Objecitve" isn't a synonym for "convincing" or "strong" or "conclusive".

The only way it can not be evidence is according to a standard by which nothing could ever be evidence - i.e. that the conclusion is rejected out of hand.

I don't think you get it. Just because there is evidence of something does not mean it's proven. No one is claiming the Bible is proof God exists; just that it's evidence. Faith bridges that gap.

This is just like in a trial; we arrest people because there is evidence, but that evidence may not be enough for a conviction (i.e. proof). If the jury finds the person not guilty, that doesn't mean there was no evidence; it just means there wasn't enough.

The difference, however, is that in trials we don't bridge gaps with faith.

When you elect to disregard the existing evidence as insufficient, that requires faith as well. That's the same as saying "The evidence isn't sufficient to conclude a crime occured, therefore I'm saying a crime definitely did not occur."

I know you're exceedingly threatened in your self-image by the idea that you have faith, but really, no one's saying it as a derogatory thing.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

_________________

I'm not the one feeling threatened here, DE. Seriously.

Look, your holy book (or any other holy book for that matter) is not evidence. It's a great work of literature, to be sure. But it's fiction. The world was not created in seven days. The human race is not descended from two Lilly white Europeans made in some deity's image and likeness. Magic Underwear does not protect the Mormons. Black people are not the living embodiment of the curse of Cain. A 19th century American did not get divine inspiration from a rock he put in his hat. The wine in a Catholic Eucharist ceremony is not actually blood. The host is not actually flesh. When the alter boy rings the magic bells, a transformation does not actually occur.

These are facts. It takes exactly zero faith to recognize them. The leap of faith takes place when you believe these things in spite of the facts.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Haha

I have no idea how you aren't tired of arguing with each other yet.

_________________
"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Yes you are.



You have no basis to say this other than your own presumtion it is true. It's nothing but circular argument.



That's nice. Like I've said, those early parts of Genesis are allegorical. You can't use that to claim later parts are fiction or allegory; they aren't even part of the same document; just collected together with it.



No idea what this has to do with anything, as Mormon underwear has nothing to do with history, and the Book of Mormon is a totally separate book from the Bible.



No idea where you got this or what it has to do with the Bible or any other religion's canonical texts.



How do you know? I don't even know what incident you're talking about here.



You have no basis whatsoever to make this claim. You just think this.



No they aren't. Some of them are likely to be facts, others are just things you assume based on your belief that there isn't a God. You haven't got any facts at all; in fact you don't even understand what a fact is. You are simply starting with the assertion that there is no God, claiming that therefore anything remotely supernatural can't be evidence, and then claiming that lack of evidence means there's no God. It's just an argument designed to confirm your own beliefs to yourself.

It's nice to see that you have so much faith, though.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I believe this is another reference to the Latter Day Saints and Urim and Thummim.

You were in that project in the military where they made you stare goats to death, weren't you? Come on, admit it.




You're hilarious on this subject.

How old is the earth?

Did mankind evolve, or were we created out of whole cloth like it says in the bible?

Has any human ever lived to be thousands of years old? Hundreds?

Does the sun revolve around the earth? Does the earth spin on it's axis?

Is there a giant globe around the earth called the firmament?

Do Mormon magical underwear actually protect them with god's protective magic?



Now, that depends on who you talk you. You might believe that's allegorical. Which really means you agree with me that it's fiction. However, there are millions of people who say the Bible is literally true as written. Something that's allegorical (in other words, fiction) cannot be considered objective evidence. Allegory would not hold up in a court of law as evidence. Allegory would not hold up to scientific standards of objective evidence.

Holy Books are not evidence. Not in any way, shape or form. Some take them to heart. Some believe in them with all their might. But they do so irrationally.




Right, and their views on their protective underwear are equally irrational to a Christian's view of Christ's resurrection.



It's a Mormon traditional belief. The founder of their faith was *very* anti-black. In the mormon faith, Black people are cursed by god as the descendants of Cain. It wasn't until the mid 70's that they backed off on some of those beliefs, but even today you can find a lot of Mormons that continue to espouse that "truth" from their holy book.



Same guy, same religion. He claimed that the words for his holy book came from his divine rock that he would put in his hat. He would then shove his face into his hat and wait for divine inspiration.



...

So, if I took the wine and host from a Catholic eucharist and tested it, do you think it would read as blood and flesh, or do you think it would read as wine and whatever the hell the wafers are made of. I spent 18 years of my life as a Catholic. It was never blood. It was never flesh. But the Catholic church insists that when the priest is done praying, it actually becomes Christ's body and blood. Transubstantiation is the word they use. It's an article of faith for the Catholic.

It's not actually blood and flesh. We can test that objectively.




Yes, they are. They are all facts. Every last one of them. Objective facts that exist outside of the beliefs that religious people hold. Zeus did not make the thunder. Prometheus did not bring fire to man. Wine and bread do not transubstantiate into flesh and blood. That guy selling you Jesus muscle powder is lying to you about it's holy power.

I don't need to take any of this on faith. It can all be objectively shown. It takes exactly zero faith to reject religion. It takes faith to accept it. That's the key difference between an atheist and a theist.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Remember!
If somebody uses words you don't know or understand, like say "allegory", ignore those mean head-ache creating words and just repeat yourself until you win.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Only if you assume that Christ wasn't some golem constructed of unleavened flour and wine.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

I just pray to all-powerful Atheismo that we can work this out!

He's been here the whole time???

Mostly I'm a Star Wars fan.




I think the Earth is billions of years old. I think Humans evolved here. It doesn't say anything about whole cloth in the Bible however, and I could be wrong about either of thos other two things.

The only one that's hilarious is you. People here are talking so far over your head it's hilarious. You're like a 12-year-old kacker claiming he know more about computers that Blizzard.



I am not certain.



What's this got to do with anything? All you're doing is attacking obsolete interpretations. I know you like them because they're easy for you to attack, but really. Stop being such a pussy.



Who cares?



I don't know the first thing about Mormon protective underwear. Perhaps you could cite something that explains the relative doctrine instead of your predjudicial language summation?



No, allegorical does not mean I agree with you that it's fiction. It does truthfully reveal the fact that God is responsible for the Earth's existence, and that God placed people here and is not altogether pleased with our behavior. It does not explain how He went about doing any of this; I see no reason it couldn't have taken billions of years and evolution for Him to do it.

That's not even the part of the Bible I really am talking about when I talk about evidence anyhow. Pslams isn't evidence of anything either, nor Proverbs. Just because one part isn't evidence doesn't mean other parts aren't. The Bible serves a lot of purposes, not just historical documentation, I know you really want to deal only with Fundamentalist "it's all true literally, or it's all false" nonsense. That's a false dilemma they've inflicted on themselves; and while millions of people may say that over a billion say that the Fundamentalist interpretation is wrong, so stop appealing to popularity. Just because Fundamentalists are wrong doesn't mean that there's no evidence there at all.

So no, I do not agree with you. Are you really so stupid you can't understand what allegory is, or are you just a dishonest asswipe?



Circular argument.



Except that it is not at all irrational to believe in Christ's ressurection. You only think it's irrational because you don't believe it. You're relying on your own assumption that it can't be true to claim it isn't.



Why are you quizzing me on the specifics of Mormonism? I'm not a mormon and don't pretend to be an expert on that faith. More to the point, the status of blacks vis a vis Cain is a matter of doctrine, not proof or nonexistance of God or of any historical event.



I am not a Mormon, so clearly I don't think he was inspired by the rock, but I don't know. Neither do you. You just assume it can't have happened because you don't believe in it. In any case, I suspect you don't really know anything about it either and are just making it sound silly because you don't like it. I suspect a little research would, as usual, find that you've again been unable to describe the doctrine in question with accuracy.

Having one faith does not somehow obligate me to regard all the evidence of all other faiths as equally credible. I've said this over and over now; you're just not reading and repeating the same bullshit (as usual). I find the evidence of Christianity to be the most credible of all faiths. That's my personal assessment. Other people have different assessments. I am not claiming that there is absolute proof God exists in the Bible, but there is enough for me to bridge the gap with faith.

By disregarding the evidence of other religions, I'm also exercising faith. So are you, by disregading the evidence of all religions.



I'm a Lutheran, so I don't personally think that the wine and bread turn to blood and flesh; if I became Catholic I might have to rethink that. That said, I don't know. More to the point, the doctrine of transubstantiation states explicitly that even though the bread and wine become flesh and blood, they still appear in all respects as bread and wine because humans cannot consume flesh and blood without disturbance. So, when you say "they were never flesh and blood", you really don't know. You're assuming that. Obviously it's an article of faith because no one knows. You don't know that they didn't. You just think that because you find it incredible and supernatural, it must not be true because the supernatural just can't be. When the existance of the supernatural is the issue, you can't make that argument legitimately. It;s just begging the question based on nothing more than your own incredulity.



No, you cannot. The doctrine states that the physical characteristics of it are hidden by God. You can't say "but that can't happen because there is no God"; that's just circular argument again.



No, they are not facts. They are things you want desperately to believe, and some of them may be true, but they are not facts. You are relying entirely on your assumption that nothing supernatural can be to claim that there's no evidence of it.



No, the fact is that you are taking it on faith, what you claim cannot be objectively shown, and you are taking it on faith. Those are the facts. Period. End of argument. Any claim otherwise you make is just you exhibiting your colossal dishonesty so that you can put your own beliefs on what you imagine to be a pedastal. It's nothing more than you being a child.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Being LDS (or mormon as it's better known) I find the things you try to espouse as our beliefs hilarious, and completely untrue. Especially the parts about Joseph Smith keeping a rock in his hat to receive revelations. I've never heard that one before, thank you for enlightening me!

Lol.

You can find that in the Bible (Genesis I believe). They were not descended of Caine though. They were the sons that clothed their naked father because they were embarrassed by his nudity.

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Monte, you follow your faith, I'll follow mine.

Believing God doesn't exist takes the same leap of faith that believing God does exist, just in a different direction.

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Lol. Lenas wins.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

If I had a faith, I could take your advice. I do not "believe" that god does not exist. I have seen no evidence of the existence of your God as laid out by your religion (or by you, individually), and thus I reject the notion.


That's simply not true. It takes zero faith to to believe that something does not exist. All it takes is a rational conclusion based on objective evidence.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

By continuing to make these assertions, you're only proving how utterly blinded by your own faith you are. You have yet to make a single argument in your position's favor that is not blatantly circular.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Monty, your intolerance of Christianity is showing again.

For ****'s sake. How is it intolerant of Christianity to say I reject the Christian idea of a deity? In order to tolerate Christianity, I have to accept their god, without any objective evidence to support his existence as laid out by that faith?

And by the way, I find that to be pretty insulting. I am not, despite what people have accused me of, Anti-Christian. A person can be non religious and not be anti-Christianity. Hell, I fiercely support the right and freedom to worship. Don't take my claims that faith is irrational as an attack on faith. Faith is irrational. That's the whole point of faith. It's an irrational belief in something for which there is no objective evidence. That doesn't make it wrong, or even stupid. Lots of people are inspired and moved by their faith. I have absolutely no problem with that. More power to them.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

You routinely take opportunities to belittle the "faith" of Christians, their ideals and even their sanity for following such a faith. Anyone that feels you are anti-christian has only your own words to judge you by. Its the point you are far worse in regards to Christianity than you accuse people of being towards Islam.

This times a million. You have never on these boards treated Christianity the same way you treat Islam.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

I'm not belittling anything. A person is perfectly welcome to believe that the world is only 5,000 years old. They are objectively and absolutely incorrect, but they are welcome to believe that. When I get critical is when they try to push that belief on others, especially through the law. Believe whatever you want. Just don't try to stick it into public school text books, or codify it into law.

Your comment about Islam is absolutely inane. I reject their holy book and it's teachings on the same grounds that I reject the Bible. However, if the situation were reversed regarding the Cordoba House, I would be just as fierce a defender of the Christian's right to establish a church there as I am the Muslim's right.

Just because I think it's irrational to believe that man and woman were made from whole cloth and put on the earth by some sort of supreme being does not mean I hold any negative feelings for people who choose to accept that as truth. Assuming, of course, they don't attempt to use their irrational beliefs as a means of harming others (for example, by attacking gay people or interracial marriages). In which case, Im not angry about the beliefs, I'm angry about the actions of the believers.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

You did, to a much smaller degree than normal, in this very response.


You are considerably more likely to lump all Christians into a single category and attempt to link the beliefs of one with the entity of the population... you did in this very thread regarding the belief structures of a distinct segment, the LDS followers. At least in the majority of cases here, those critical of Islam are clear in their understanding that their are individuals within the group, and not all feel that way. With you and Christians, no chance.

When it comes down to it Monty, you take shots at Christians and Christianity whenever you get the chance regardless of the reason. As for Islam? I can not remember a time when you belitted, insulted, degraded, disregarded or dismissed them the way you do the Christian faith. You are not an equal opportunity insulter of religion. Islam gets a pass from you. If you try to state otherwise, you are nothing but a liar.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."