The Glade 4.0

Dude, I've posted 2 links to articles from Muslims that are against it. Take the blinders off.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Again, that means that the Muslim community is not so monolithic as people here want to imply.

*These* Muslims are against extremism. *These* Muslims are New Yorkers, and were no less a victim of the terror attacks than any other Muslim. *These* Muslims have every right under the first amendment to acquire and set up this community center.

And yet, these Muslims are facing ignorance, hate, and will likely encounter violence from ignorant and hateful people in the process. We should be celebrating this as an act of defiance and an endorsement of our way of life.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

You're the only one implying that the Muslim community is monolithic in this thread. No one else is saying that. Stop projecting.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

That's it, right there. I don't think he can.

Some see and conclude, others conclude and refuse to see.

How well one adapts to reality is the key - if you can't achieve your goals on your own, your grasp of reality is faulty. Others can, so why not you? It's 'cause you're failing to grasp the obvious, you idiot!

Deciding that others owe you ANYTHING so you can achieve your goals just goes to show how far off the bubble you really are.

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In time, this too shall pass.

Are you from another planet? Seriously, are you actually insane? I have never once implied or stated that the Muslim community is monolithic, in this thread or any other. Because it isn't. And that's the point I have been trying to make. Painting all of islam with the broad brush of extremism is irrational and ignorant. Islam is *Not* a monolithic entity.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

I should have said that YOU are the only one stating anything about the Muslim community being monolithic by saying that people in this thread are saying they are. The folks in this thread aren't saying they are. Basically, stop bringing that up when folks in this thread aren't doing what you think they are.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Painting all of Islam as a bunch of moderate people who are just like us in every repsect but their method of worship and excepting only a few rare extremists is painting it as a monolithic entity.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

You don't actually know that either of your first points is true, and your third is false. They have no right whatsoever under the First Ammendment to put a mosque there. They have the right as a property right, to do with their property and money as they please.



No they aren't, because the fact that they want to put it there indicates that they are not actually against extremism, or victims. They are merely claiming to be. There is no other reason for a mosque to go in that area; it is not an act of defiance in any way. Do you seriously think that extremists will somehow see building a mosque there as a defeat of some kind?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Yeah, I figured the other five examples we presented required reading so they were ignored. This one was a video, it is much less intellectually challenging to absorb.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

A more clear example of the "othering" being directed at Muslim Americans I have never seen. They are just like us. Because we are all Americans. Christians, atheists, Pagans, Jews, Unitarians, and Muslims. They are Americans.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

I'm not "othering" American muslims; I'm claiming the specific muslims in favor of this mosque are not as moderate as they claim. The fact that "we're all Americans" is irrelevant. I am not generalizing them to any other American muslims. All you're doing is looking for an excuse to claim "othering" predjudice, and generally get on your high horse since you can't actually address the situation.

All you're doing is lumping all "Americans" together. Being American doesn't mean its impossible to be a conservative muslim.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Yes, you are. You basically said that it was wrong of me to say they were just like us. They *ARE* just like us. They are Americans, just like you and me. They are human beings, just like you and me.

What's wrong with being a conservative Muslim? Don't we all have that right, as Americans? What's wrong with being a moderate Muslim? Or a liberal Muslim? Nothing, in my book. There is nothing, in my book, wrong with being an America-hating Muslim so long as you don't actually fund, support, enact, or plan violence. I don't care if you're an anti-American Christian, or a pro-American Christian, or an Anti-American fundamental Scientologist. You're still an American. And I will always defend your ability to exercise your rights under the constitution.

I support the KKK's right to get together and scream their bullshit. I'll be right over there, with the other people, counter protesting.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

I said it's wrong of you to assume all muslims everywhere are just like Americans. That's just making both muslims and Americans into monolithic groups.

In any case, the group building this mosque is a small one and I'm cricticizing them on their choices, not on their religion.



Rights are not the issue. No one said they can't be, but a conservative muslim is far more likely to be sympathetic to terrorists.

Where do you think terrorists are more likely to come from, Bosnia or Saudi Arabia? Which one is more conservative?



Fantastic. Have you got anything relevant to say, or are you going to keep pretending I'm talking about muslims other than the specific ones building the mosque?



Ahh, so it's ok to be a muslim who is an anti-American bigot, but it's not ok to be the reverse? Got it.

In the meantime, you'll explain why it's not ok to call America-hating muslims assholes, especially when they act like assholes. Muslims are only assholes when they blow things up, is that it?



Rights under the Constitution are not relevant. You don't have a right for people to not call you an *******, or point out that your behavior is in poor taste.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

That isn't what you said, and I never assumed that. I said the people we are talking about *are* Americans. They are also clearly a group of Americans that stands in opposition to the radical brand of Islam that attacked us.



Interesting. I note that plenty of Christians were sympathetic to the terrorist that murdered Dr. Tiller, and many were also sympathetic to the acts of Tim McVeigh. Not to mention all the Christians in the south who were sympathetic to the KKK (and the few that still are). Should we be attacking all of Christianity for the faults of their most radical elements?




Oh, I entirely agree. But those statements are going to be weighed on their merits and against our general way of life. So the same right by which you say those things is the same right by which you are called out for saying those things. The right to free speech does not free you of the social consequences of your speech. It simply restricts the government from restricting your right.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

It's precisely what I said. Read more carefully. They also don not stand in any clear opposition to anything. Tehy claim to, but their actions indicate the contrary.



Since no one is attacking all of Islam, this is irrelevant. Are you claiming that if I cricticize Christians who support that murder I'm somehow attacking all Christians?



There aren't any social consequences other than you disagreeing with me and making a fool of yourself claiming I'm talking about all muslims or even all American muslims.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

More about the muslim friendly gay bar:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4307207/intr ... uslim-men/

A twitter comment from the group building this ground zero mosque:

http://twitter.com/Park51/status/20818165487

.@greggutfeld You're free to open whatever you like. If you won't consider the sensibilities of Muslims, you're not going to build dialog
-Park51

lol

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Huh. Sounds remarkably like what I suggested.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

So, now Muslim Americans have to build centers dedicated to all religions in order to not face criticism for exercising their right to free expression? Typical.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

No one said any such thing. They said that this particular group, wanting to build at this particular site, would put up a church and a synagogue too if he were really interested in healing or building bridges or whatever. No one said he "has to" do anything, nor does "exercising his rights" have anything to do with it. It has to do with him being sincere in his desires.

Every time you try to extend any of these arguments to all muslims, all muslim americans, to rights, or to any claim that nyone must do anything, you're strawmanning.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So, they have to do what this person thinks in order to prove their position about building bridges? There is no other way? Simply setting up shop and proving by example that Islam is not what the hijackers claimed it to be is not enough?

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

I never said they had to do anything. I merely pointed out that doing it in one particular way would be far more effective at building bridges, appear far less suspicious to critics, AND have the side effect of NOT bolstering the morale and recruitment efforts of those the builders purport to oppose.

But yes, clearly suggesting a win/win/win scenario is telling them what to do, and I should be ashamed.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

When they choose to set up shop exactly where only an imbicile would not realize that the fundamentalists will see it as a victory, yes. Either they are not entirely sincere intentions, or they are imbiciles. If they actually want to "build bridges" then they need to do so in a way that indicates genuine desire to reach out. They don't "have to" in any legal sense, but that isn't the issue. No one is required to consider them sincere when their actions call that into question.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Is Monte is the only one making Muslims a monolithic entity in this thread?

Seems that way.

Monte - you've lost the thread. While initial sentiment was against it, popular consensus seems to be they should be allowed to build it, and its a bad idea for Muslim - everyone else relations. Taking your far fetched pot shots trying to save face is just digging you in deeper. Do what you like but I'd advise finding something else shiny to play with soon.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

I lost because my opinion is not popular here? Heh.

Look, people can hate on Islam all they want in this thread. It's sad, but it's unsurprising. I guess we haven't got over our knee jerk (and tragic) fears from 9-11. Still waiting for the eeeevil Islamofascists to jump from the ally ways.

Sigh. We will never, ever learn.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

No, you lost because you're still trying to insist people are "hating on Islam". All you're doing is demonstrating that you lack the ability to comprehend a position without imposing your own preconceptions on it.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."