The Glade 4.0

Hey, at least this puts him in good company.

Hmm. I wonder how we should treat people who do this? Let's look at Monte's suggestion:


I know what I took away from this profound suggestion; clearly I shouldn't pollute my mind with Monte's evil deceptive posts by reading his intentional lies.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Thank you for standing on principle, Mr. President.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Standing on Principal while uttering statements you find completely irrational and delusional... interesting mix there Monte.

Of course, his statements also support the group that is planning a Koran Burning event.

I wonder if that still "on principal".

Wow, I think this is just about the most openly bigoted op-ed I've read in a major publication (even if it is just the NY Post). Boldface is mine.



Seriously, wtf?

RD, you do realize that the Post is a wannabe without the class and restraint shown by The Sun, don't you?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

A search for the author - "Shavana Abruzzo" - turns up similar offensive material but no personal information.

I'm guessing it's a pseudonym used to shield a shock-jock type journalist.

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In time, this too shall pass.

And in today's news, people against the mosque placement are outraged that the President agrees with most (but not all) of us.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100814/ts ... 0814172344

Controversy swells as Obama supports Ground Zero mosque

by Carlos Hamann Carlos Hamann – 2 hrs 44 mins ago

WASHINGTON (AFP) – US President Barack Obama's endorsement of a controversial plan to build a mosque just blocks from Ground Zero poured fuel Saturday on a raging debate over religious freedom and sensitivities over the 9/11 attacks.

Muslims "have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," Obama said at an Iftar meal at the White House for Muslims breaking their Ramadan fast late Friday.

That includes "the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan."

Obama had remained on the sidelines over plans to build an Islamic cultural center, which includes a mosque, two blocks away from the gaping Ground Zero hole where the Twin Towers were destroyed on September 11, 2001.

But after a New York city commission on August 3 unanimously approved the plans, the president came out to fully support the project.

"This is America," Obama said, "and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are."

Planners say the multi-story "Cordoba House" will include a mosque, sports facilities, theater, restaurant and possibly a day care, and would be open to all visitors to demonstrate that Muslims are part of their community.

In the remarks Obama acknowledged that the site where the World Trade Center towers once stood remains "hallowed ground," and that the 9/11 attacks "were a deeply traumatic event for our country."

The proposed location however has touched raw nerves.

On Saturday the group 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America, which represents some relatives of attack victims, said it was "stunned" by the president's remarks.

Obama "has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," the group said.

"Now this president declares that the victims of 9/11 and their families must bear another burden. We must stand silent at the last place in America where 9/11 is still remembered with reverence or risk being called religious bigots."

Building the mosque "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah," the group claimed.

Another group representing other relatives of 9/11 victims, the September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, said in May that it "strongly supports" the Islamic center.

A CNN/Opinion Research poll earlier this month showed that 68 percent of Americans opposed the Islamic center plans, while only 29 percent favored them.

Congressman Peter King, who represents New York in the US House of Representatives, said the Muslim community was "abusing" its rights and "needlessly offending" many people.

"It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero," said King, a Republican. "Unfortunately the president caved in to political correctness."

Self-described "liberal Muslim" Farzana Hassan, a Canadian, told Fox News on Saturday that she believes the Islamic center's location is "provocative."

"This is highly insensitive to the sentiments of the people who lost loved ones in the 9/11 attacks," said Hassan, who has written books on Islam.

Obama said the Al-Qaeda terrorists responsible for the 9/11 attacks do not represent Islam.

"It is a gross distortion of Islam," the president said late Friday. "In fact, Al-Qaeda has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion -- and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11."

The Council on American-Islamic Relations, a US advocacy group, said it welcomed Obama's "strong support for Muslim religious rights."

Nihad Awad, a senior CAIR official, said he hoped his remarks "will serve as encouragement to those who are challenging the rising level of Islamophobia in our society."

Awad also urged "other national political and religious leaders to speak out in defense of the freedom of religion and equality of all Americans."

One of those reacting Saturday was New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

"I applaud President Obama's clarion defense of the freedom of religion," Bloomberg said in a statement.

The proposed site "is as important a test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetime," he said.

Passions over the issue run high across the country.

A Florida church has already said it will hold a "Koran-burning" on September 11 -- which this year coincides with Eid al-Fitr, the end-of-Ramadan holiday.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

That is disgusting.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Yes, it is.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

I feel more united already.

_________________

This has been building for a long time now. We have been standing by as Islam is demonized for nearly a decade, and this is the inevitable result. Going back over the threads on this board, we can see the same effect. The second a radical muslim detonates themselves in another act of senseless violence, someone inevitably says "Religion of Peace", as if the whole religion was to blame for the actions of a single deranged radical.

Words have power.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

First of all, Islam hasn't be demonized. Radical Islam has. Secondly, even if it were, what are we supposed to do other than stand by? Freedom has it's negatives. Are you saying we should deny people freedom of speech?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

No, all of Islam is being demonized because a bunch of radicals flew planes into the Twin Towers. And all of Islam has been continuously smeared by the right wing of our nation since that happened. Even their revered GW Bush tried to stem the tide. To his credit he worked very hard to draw a line between radical Islam and regular Islam.

Lots of people exercise their right to free speech irresponsibly, and there are inevitable consequences for that choice. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Dan Savage, and Glenn Beck are all *very* prominent conservative thinkers and opinion-makers. All of them are guilty of hysterical, misleading, and bigoted attacks on Muslims and Islam as a whole. Hell, conservatives emphasized Obama's middle name because it's Arabic. They did so in order to gin up right wing fears about Islam.

No one should be denied their right to free speech, but people should be held responsible for the consequences of their speech. The right wing has gone absolutely ballistic about this Mosque, as if it's some kind of threat. But their attacks are not merely focused on a place within a few blocks of ground zero. They are attacking the construction of Mosques all over the country. They are saying quite clearly that they do not believe Muslims have a right to worship as they choose.

These are major republican and conservative opinion makers, law makers, and major elements of the Tea Party (which are really just a bunch of radical republicans). Glenn Beck, the Tea Party's grand poobah, is all over it. Someone is going to get killed as a direct result of what these conservative hate-talkers say. Just like the people in the Unitarian church got murdered by someone who was devoted to modern conservative thought. Just like Dr. Tiller got assassinated in his church by someone motivated by modern conservative thought.

Ultimately, it's difficult to conclude that there is intent involved, not just to make a handy profit by being as extreme and irresponsible as people like Beck and Limbaugh regularly are, but intent to sound a dog whistle to crazy people. People who will take action.

Don't think there's a connection? Recently, Glenn Beck was hounding a California environmental group on his Radio and TV show. He used his little chalk board to try and do his six degrees to hitler thing. And in the end, the cops stopped a guy who had loaded up a bunch of guns and was on his way to go on a killing spree directed at that environmental group. This guy was an avid conservative, clearly crazy, and a fan of Beck. Hell, the guy who went into the Unitarian church had said flat out he was killing people based on the horrible liberals named in a popular conservative book he'd read. That book said that liberals were trying to destroy American, and that guy was trying to ignite a war because of it.

Look everyone has the right to free speech. Conservatives need to learn how to exercise that right responsibly, or they will wind up with even *more* blood on their hands. Not that most conservative talkers give much of a **** about the effects their shows have on others, or the lives that get taken as a result.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

You forgot the Rev. Wright in that list of people Monte.

And Keith Olberman.

This is a fun game. Everyone add someone to the list!

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

No, there has not. What there has been is a near-endless attempt by the left to paint any cricticism of any muslim as cricticism of all muslims or all of Islam.



What exactly is a "hysterical, misleading, bigoted attack"? How is it on "Muslims as a whole"? So what if any of these people did? This is just another attempt by you to claim that if any conservative said something YOU think is bigoted, then that means ANYTHING said by ANY conservative is. It's just an attempt to set yourself up as the arbitrator of what is and isn't responsible speech.



You keep saying this about "held responsible for the consequences of their speech". What exactly is that suppsoed to mean? Exactly who should suffer wht consequences for what speach, and why should they?

Who is "they"? There may be some people that are against mosques in general, but so what? That doesn't somehow meant hat those of us that think this mosque is an appalling display of smug insensitivity dressed up as "healing" are somehow connected to those who oppose any and all mosques. You're just trying to create guilt by association with a nameless, formless "they".



Glenn Beck is all over what, exactly? What does "all over it" mean? When and where did he say it.. the whole context, not just parts you snip to make it look like he said sometihng else.

No one is going to get killed as a "direct result" of any of them saying anything, unless you can show me where one of them actually told people "go right out and kill a muslim right now" or words to that effect. That's how it works; we don't just assume indirect results come from what a person said, nor do we hold them responsible for it unless it DIRECTLY encouraged violence.

This is jsut proof positive that you only care about free speech for those who agree with you. Just claim any idea you don't like might cause some whacko to become violent and *boom* we don't have to allow Glenn Beck to speak anymore! We can hold him legally responsible for inciting violence and throw him in the slammer! What a clever idea! We can get rid of conservative voices Monty doesn't like while pretending to respect free speech in the process! Brilliant!

Dr. Tiller did NOT get killed by someone "motivated by modern conservative thought." You are flat-out LYING about that. We've been over this and you got your *** kicked up one side and down the other.



No, there isn't. This is just you wanting to play petty tyrant and restrict the freedoms of people with "dangerous" ideas. There is no such thing as "dog whistle".

This, Monty, is why someone like you should never be allowed access to actual power of any kind. You're too dangerous.



So there are people out there who are mentally ill and listen to Glenn Beck. That in no way makes Glenn Beck responsible.

But that's what this is really about. You like to talk a good game about respecting everyone's rights, but you really don't. You're really just trying to claim that major conservatives are inciting violence against muslims and should be silenced. Then you can argue that since some of us are appalled by this particular mosque, even though we recognize a right to build it, must also be dangerous because we could only think that if we hated all muslims. Then we should be silenced.

Thanks for being so up front about it. You'll try to deny it, but you're such a rabid liar whenever you get caught at anything I doubt anyone will believe you.



In other words, Conservatives need to learn not to express their ideas, because Monty can draw an unproveable line of responsibility when the mentally ill do something and claim that was the reason. Convenient.

Just move to Europe already. I udnerstand they have all kinds of cool laws about who can express what idea.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Glenn Beck is not a thinker, he is a giant douche.

Consequently, do you think video games cause violence? Or music? Cause that seems similar to saying that these TV morons are responsible for the dumb reactions of a few people.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

No, they do not cause violence. That's been shown empirically.

Then again, it's not quite the same thing. Here, let me lay it out.

Glenn Beck goes on his show, and does his circus act connecting everything on the left to Hitler. His legion of loyal Tea Party fans sucks it up, takes it as gospel truth. They go to their meetings, they shout it from the rafters. They go to their protests, and paint it on their signs. They feel a part of a great movement. They feel like they belong, and the world makes sense to them again. The liberal is out there and he's evil. He's taking away 'murika.

Beck also reaches people - violent, deranged people - who are also Tea Party folks, or militia folks, or white supremacists, or some combination of the three. They own firearms, they are willing to use them, and they have been looking for an excuse to go out and kill them some liberals. They've been listening to Beck and his ilk for a long time, and now that a black man is in the white house, and he's definitely coming for their guns, cuz Beck said they were, and Obama is definitely trying to turn this country into a communist islamic state cuz Beck said they were, and because it's your patriotic duty to arm yourself for the coming storm cuz Beck said it was, well, they're gonna go get the ball rolling.

You can't entirely dismiss the absolute deluge of hateful, violent rhetoric on the right. You can't. Or, if you're dismissing it, it's because you don't want to confront the reality of the situation. Rush, Beck, Savage, Hannity, Coulter, and basically every single conservative commentator on the radio regularly advocates for violence on their shows. Those shows reach millions and millions of loyal conservative audience members. Also, crazy people who are loyal conservative audience members.

People have already been killed as a result. It's convienient for conservatives to ignore the connection between the books that inspired the act of terrorism against the Unitarian church in Knoxville, but that doesn't' mean there is no connection. No matter how much DE uses the "nuh uh" defense.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

So by this standard, it is accurate to point the finger at Islam as violent?

Oh wait, that would mean not being a hypocrite.

Well I guess if Monty says so, it must be true. It's amazing how any target will fit into his little screed. Of course, he didn't think that Islam would fit, because he hasn't thought it through. His gut and DailyKos told him it was so, and he must therefore believe it. The lack of any shred of evidence to back up his rants lead me to believe he is so convinced of these fantasies that everyone else will be too; all he needs to do is state it, and it is so. Sadly this kind of thing doesn't require any rational thought on the speaker's part, just sound bites from their favorite website and BINGO, a new target for the cause.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Every time I see this thread title, I think of the Futurama episode where Bender goes to college and the dean shouts "ROBOT HOUSE!"

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Yo don't understand what the words "cause" and "empirically" mean, do you? Or do you just have a double standard where Islam gets a free pass when someone exploits it to preach violence?



In other words, it's all based on your stereotyping of Tea Party attendees as universally hanging on Beck's every word.



In other words, metally deranged people avt like mentally deranged people, but mysteriously they wouldn't do this if it weren't for Glenn Beck. It's nice to know psychopathology didn't exist before modern conservative talk TV and radio.



Sure you can dismiss it. It doesn't matter who they reach; there is nothing wrong with what they are saying. If what they're saying violates laws against inciting violence, why aren't they being arrested? Hmmm....



Yeah, you can't show a single inciddent of actully inciting any violence whatsover except by calling it the "nuh uh" defense. It's amazing. "I can get away with bald-faced lies as long as I call any contradiction the nuh-uh defense! That will fool all of them!" It's like listening to my 4-year-old deny that she knows who put toys all over the living room floor.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So let me see if I get this right.

Monty gets up in arms, has veiled threats to suppress people's freedom of speech, blames conservative talking heads on a regular basis and has this feeling that conservatives are going to rise up and start killing people because they listen to Beck and others.

Yet Monty does everything he can to defend Islam even though it's radical members do on pretty much a daily basis kill, torture and maim people who go against what they believe and say.

Monty, throws all conservatives together but goes to great, great, great lengths to defend Islam and make sure all of us know that the majority of Islam is peace loving and all that jazz.

Is that about the gist of it?

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Yup, the normal "aiding and abetting" of confirmed US enemies by making sure everyone must include ALL of Islam in the discussion. If one conservative is a nutjob and they all are, but one Muslim terrorist does not make Islam terrorists.

Same ol' same ol'.

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In time, this too shall pass.

The ability of board conservatives (bored conservatives?) to turn on a *dime* and hypocritically criticize never fails to amaze and astound.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show