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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:03 pm 
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Ya know, the one critique I have of my father's parenting was that in his own flaming liberalism, he pitched me the same bill of goods Monte plans on pitching to his children. I was the type of young man who really would have benefited from military life, in hind sight, as my immaturity cost me years of productivity, and gave me a longer, harder road to walk on my path to success. Combining my work ethic and my intellect with service as an officer would have fast tracked me in life.

While I don't blame my father for my own decision making, his opinions carried tons of weight with me then, even more so than now, and he absolutely influenced me in those regards. I won't be making the same mistake with my own children. Service is noble and honorable, and if it a path my children seek, I will give them more than just my blessings, I will give them my encouragement.

Much like Arathain, I do my best to keep my personal politics away from my little girl. We have nightly dinner table discussions of world events and politics, and I make sure she stays informed. I ask her what she thinks, and then regardless of what she thinks, I work to challenge her ideas. Then we switch sides, and debate from opposite points of view. The goal being to improve her critical thinking, and to have the ability to see all sides of any issue, find the flaws in the logic of either side or both, before settling on an opinion or solution.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:32 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Much like Arathain, I do my best to keep my personal politics away from my little girl. We have nightly dinner table discussions of world events and politics, and I make sure she stays informed. I ask her what she thinks, and then regardless of what she thinks, I work to challenge her ideas. Then we switch sides, and debate from opposite points of view. The goal being to improve her critical thinking, and to have the ability to see all sides of any issue, find the flaws in the logic of either side or both, before settling on an opinion or solution.


...

No, that's not like Arathain at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Much like Arathain, I do my best to keep my personal politics away from my little girl. We have nightly dinner table discussions of world events and politics, and I make sure she stays informed. I ask her what she thinks, and then regardless of what she thinks, I work to challenge her ideas. Then we switch sides, and debate from opposite points of view. The goal being to improve her critical thinking, and to have the ability to see all sides of any issue, find the flaws in the logic of either side or both, before settling on an opinion or solution.


...

No, that's not like Arathain at all.



Sorry, I thought you cared about the success of your children. I'm glad to be a better parent than you, then.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:02 pm 
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Talking about politics with your children won't make them more successful.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:32 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Talking about politics with your children won't make them more successful.

In general? Maybe. Maybe not. But being aware of the world beyond your immediate environment, and being exposed to different and even (perhaps most importantly) opposing views from a fairly early age is important, I think, to the development of mental and emotional maturity.

Regardless, it often doesn't matter what you're talking about as much as how you're talking and what your child is learning from it. It sounds like Rynar is laying the groundwork for critical thinking, introspection, and extrospection -- the art of looking everywhere for answers, while being healthily skeptical of all of them.

Those are valuable habits that get harder to learn the older you are.

Rynar:

When she gets old enough, if she's not already, make sure she gets some exposure to forrmal logic. Sadly, most public school districts in the U.S. don't bother anymore unless you can find a decent classical program like I.B. As well, if she's interested by highschool, maybe look into LD or CX debate. She might also find the extemporaneous speaking competitions fun if she enjoys your conversations. Of course, especially if you do foreign topic extemp., it's also a good way to learn how to bullshit like a pro...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:10 pm 
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Stathol:

That is exactly the goal. She is on the debate team at her school, as well as participating in Mock Trial, and Model Legislature. A few years ago I realized how much she liked to argue, just for the sake of arguing, so I put it to good use. She is one of the brightest kids I've ever encountered, and I refuse to allow her to waste herself while she is still under my roof. She resisted at first, but now she loves it. It's one of the best parenting decisions I've ever made in my life.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Much like Arathain, I do my best to keep my personal politics away from my little girl. We have nightly dinner table discussions of world events and politics, and I make sure she stays informed. I ask her what she thinks, and then regardless of what she thinks, I work to challenge her ideas. Then we switch sides, and debate from opposite points of view. The goal being to improve her critical thinking, and to have the ability to see all sides of any issue, find the flaws in the logic of either side or both, before settling on an opinion or solution.


...

No, that's not like Arathain at all.



Sorry, I thought you cared about the success of your children. I'm glad to be a better parent than you, then.


LMAO, dude. Learn to read. Keep my politics away from my children =/ debate politics at the dinner table.

At the dinner table? What's wrong with you, man? That's supposed to be a relaxing time where you talk about your day. If you guys want to spend your dinner debating, more power to you, but it most certainly does not make you a better parent than me. It most certainly does not mean your child will be more successful, either, but the fact you mention that is somewhat telling. Sounds to me like you're one of those pushy hyper-active parents that doesn't let your kid have any downtime. I could be wrong - I just hope your kids don't turn into huge balls of overachieve-or-else stress.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
he pitched me the same bill of goods Monte plans on pitching to his children.



Work hard, learn everything you can, show kindness, protect the environment, respect people for who they are and not the color of their skin, treat the downtrodden with respect and care, be generous, don't cheat, be honest, because there but for the grace of (insert whatever) go you.

Yeah, real bill of goods there.

Much better, IMO, than "He who dies with the most toys wins, no matter the consequences for anyone else but yourself."

But hey, YMMV. Perhaps by raising children to be selfish, hateful, violent reactionaries lacking critical thinking skills beyond the one question "WWARD", you'll wind up with the results you want.

Me, I'll choose to raise my kids to be kind to others, to respect them and to find the best in them, and to help when they can. I'll teach them to question authority, to stand up against injustice, and to value tolerance and diversity. I'll teach them to respect their environment, to conserve nature as best they can, and to live lives that not only serve their own interests, but leave the world a better place.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:

...

No, that's not like Arathain at all.



Sorry, I thought you cared about the success of your children. I'm glad to be a better parent than you, then.


LMAO, dude. Learn to read. Keep my politics away from my children =/ debate politics at the dinner table.

At the dinner table? What's wrong with you, man? That's supposed to be a relaxing time where you talk about your day. If you guys want to spend your dinner debating, more power to you, but it most certainly does not make you a better parent than me. It most certainly does not mean your child will be more successful, either, but the fact you mention that is somewhat telling. Sounds to me like you're one of those pushy hyper-active parents that doesn't let your kid have any downtime. I could be wrong - I just hope your kids don't turn into huge balls of overachieve-or-else stress.


Bullshit liberal myth. She'll be prepared for the real world, and when she is competeing with your kid, she'll have the skills to overwhelm them. As for being pushy-hyper-active, whatever the **** that means, I don't know what to tell you. I keep her involved, and I am supportive of her. I make her try things, and if she doesn't enjoy them, she doesn't have to continue them, but she has to replace that activity with something else. She doesn't get to play video games all day, or spend her day in front of a TV. In fact, we don't even have cable. She earns her TV, phone, and computer privileges by reading books and doing chores, and getting good grades. And next summer she'll be starting her first job at a family owned small business.

My goal is to prepare her for the real world, and to make her ready for the day when she won't want her mother and I to be in charge of her any more. She'll be competent and able to do for herself. Maybe you seek to teach your children other lessons, but I can't see how they could be more valuable than critical thinking, self-esteem and assuredness, a good work ethic, and a strong sense of self reliance and responsibility.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:24 pm 
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I'm actually with Rynar on discussing politics with children. Don't hesitate to discuss and keep the flow of ideas going. Just make sure you share the reasons for your beliefs, not just the beliefs themselves.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:28 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
I'm actually with Rynar on discussing politics with children. Don't hesitate to discuss and keep the flow of ideas going. Just make sure you share the reasons for your beliefs, not just the beliefs themselves.


I don't actually share my beliefs durring these conversations. It isn't the point of the exercise. I debate from both sides of the issues with her, and force her to do the same. You'd probably get a kick out of watching me assume the liberal Democtratic position on healthcare.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:32 pm 
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*shrug* that works too. Everything is a teaching moment with a child.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Bullshit liberal myth.


What, dinner being a time for relaxing and talking about your day is a bullshit liberal myth? Holy crap, dude, you're a crazy person.

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She'll be prepared for the real world, and when she is competeing with your kid, she'll have the skills to overwhelm them.


Whatever you say, man. My kid will be just fine.

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My goal is to prepare her for the real world, and to make her ready for the day when she won't want her mother and I to be in charge of her any more.


A noble goal.

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Maybe you seek to teach your children other lessons, but I can't see how they could be more valuable than critical thinking, self-esteem and assuredness, a good work ethic, and a strong sense of self reliance and responsibility.


Well, be sure to hire someone to teach her how to read. None of what you posted has anything to do with what I said.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:56 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
I'm actually with Rynar on discussing politics with children. Don't hesitate to discuss and keep the flow of ideas going. Just make sure you share the reasons for your beliefs, not just the beliefs themselves.


Only if the conversation is initiated by the kid. Like I said, I'm not going to push my ideology on my kid. I'll discuss, sure - that's only good for them (but not "debate" at the dinner table...), but I'm going to try as hard as I can to keep from influencing their ideology.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:19 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Ya know, the one critique I have of my father's parenting was that in his own flaming liberalism, he pitched me the same bill of goods Monte plans on pitching to his children. I was the type of young man who really would have benefited from military life, in hind sight, as my immaturity cost me years of productivity, and gave me a longer, harder road to walk on my path to success. Combining my work ethic and my intellect with service as an officer would have fast tracked me in life.


The community I grew up in (Elmo knows all about it, I'm sure, Swarthmore and Nether Providence right there in his very own Delaware County PA) was a hotbed of families that did exactly this. The school district helped them out too. There were maybe three of us that were not overt liberals in my high school class, and all of us had moved there in the middle to late part of our school career. The schools themselves were not better; I had one teacher the entire time that didn't wear liberalism on his sleeve.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:15 am 
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I liked what this blog had to say.

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Encourage polite, open, and honest debate; especially if your children disagree with you. Your willingness to listen just might convince them you will listen if they need to talk to you about something really important.

If you don’t know the answer to something don’t fake it. Kids have a BS detector as sensitive as my beagle’s nose begging from the kitchen table. Besides they will probably be given the right answer next week in school, so don’t knowingly undercut your credibility. Far better is to sit down together with a book or at the computer and look up the right answer.

Talk to your kids about how various public policies affect your family directly. Make sure your children know you vote in every election. If you know a service member, talking about their service immediately personalizes much of our foreign policy and opens doors to a chat about domestic policy.
Encourage them to write their political leaders with polite questions or comments, most will write back with an answer. Take them to a city council, school board meeting, or a political event.

Ask them their opinions; they may surprise you with their insight. If they disagree with you, don’t shoot them down; ask more questions, eventually they will figure out the “right answer” even if it isn’t your “right answer”.

Political growth is a process like mental and physical growth. You don’t get angry with your child for being only four feet tall; likewise, don’t be angry when they disagree with your position on Darfur or abortion. With your help, they will come to their own truth on these and other issues; but more important, they will be ready and willing to engage in the debate as knowledgeable adults and take their place as citizens.


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