The Glade 4.0

Wow this thread turned out better then I hope, special Kudos to Stathol for his mad quotation skills.

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Sure, I'll buy that. There's evidence he's guilty. But, like the testimonial evidence found in the Bible, it's just not enough to produce proof. In order to truly believe it, you just need faith.



I don't think there's any investigation into any wrongdoing on those fronts. Would you have a man be falsely convicted of another crime so that he could be punished for an unprosecuted wrong?



Until he's convicted, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Just like anyone else.

This series right here makes me so sad. It is called "presumption of innocence" for a reason. Not the "benefit of the doubt" clause or something.

People should be presumed innocent, but they never are. I wonder if they ever have been.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

You're right, you've convinced me that you're correct. Your argument is flawless and your ability to merely give the benefit of the doubt to people charged with criminal behavior is by far the superior moral, legal, and ethical stance to take.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Legally speaking OJ didn't kill anybody. That's the way the system works. If something can't be proven after reasonable inquiry that has to be good enough.

Do we miss sometimes? Sure, but for the system to work we have to accept it I think we have the best system we can have that's run by fallible men and women. I can't think of another country in which I'd rather be tried.

Yeah the juries' job is to decide if the state does their job or not. However for all official purposes we have to live by their ruling. If a person is not convicted of a felony then they have all the legal entitlements of someone not convicted of a felony. If they did it or not quickly becomes irrelivant.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

But on what do you base that assessment of the odds? If there was insufficient evidence to prove criminal wrong doing beyond a reasonable doubt, then how can you rationally say that the odds of him being innocent are 0?

I mean, I can understand if you say that you think the odds of him being guilty are non-zero. Even if he's entirely innocent, it wouldn't surprise if there's at least some piece of evidence suggesting that he's guilty. That's usually just the way of it in any trial. But you seem to be incredulous that anyone could be less than 100% certain of his guilt, in spite of the fact that you recognize there was insufficient evidence for that level of certainty. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I wouldn't even necessarily criticize you for saying that your "gut instinct" is that he's guilty of wrongdoing even though you don't have sufficient evidence for proof. I just want you to recognize it for what it is -- a personal belief or feeling that isn't entirely rooted in western rationality.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

When a criminal case is investigated, evidence examined and the prosecution fails to prove guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" (as is the standard of most criminal cases), it pretty much means that if you still doubt, you're not being a reasonable person.

QED.

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In time, this too shall pass.

Uh...I think you've stated that backwards.

If they establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt, then if you still doubt, it is unreasonable.*

* If we assume that juries always make completely rational decisions according to the prescribed standard

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

It's not "guilt beyond all doubt". It's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So, in my case, the prosecution brought in one eye witness, who's testimony ran counter to his initial police reports of the incident. He also had a personal bias against the accused, and his answers to some of the questions by defense counsel were terribly difficult to believe. He wasn't credible. That left reasonable doubt. Several other factors contributed to that reasonable doubt, but yeah.

Guilt or innocence of the crime is already present. Someone either did what they are accused of, or they did not. That fact doesn't change when the jury renders a verdict. Innocent men are punished in our system, and guilty men go free. It's not fair, it's not perfect, but it is better than a system that places the burden on the accused and not the state.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Did I? I'm reading what I wrote but if I did get it backwards I don't see it...but it wouldn't be the first time I've edited out my original intent accidentally.

"...if you still doubt, you're not being a reasonable person."

As for the jury, my opinion is that they get more exposure to the evidence and the prosecutions case than folks watching from behind the TV, so I'm good with what they come up with.

edit: Oh! I see, the way I meant it to read is "if you still doubt the ruling".

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In time, this too shall pass.

Your position, I think, also takes as given that the jury got all the information necessary to make a rational verdict.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

That's the job of the judge, prosecutor and defender. I have to take it as a given, or no legitimate decision could be made for OR against.

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In time, this too shall pass.

Right, but in the end, it's not possible to conclude that Jurors have all the information they need to make a rational call when some of that information doesn't ever cross their desk.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Oh, I see what y...wait..

I'm going to have to flow-chart this now -_-

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

Guilt or innocence isn't just about whether they did the action in question. It can also be about whether the action is a crime. Sometimes, there is no dispute about what happened, but about whether what happened was legal under the circumstances.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

That's certainly true. And, Tom Delay *is* going to trial in Texas for other charges. It's also about weather or not the Prosecution did a good job of showing that illegality. If the prosecution screws the pooch, it goes a long way of tanking the chances that a case will go to court.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Yes. However, the fact that a case does not go to trial does not mean the Prosecution screwed up. You'd need to demonstrate that.

When the prosecution screws up so badly that they get in trouble themselves, that almost certainly means they were doing something unethical to get a conviction.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I agree that to state that they screwed up as objective fact, I would need to show evidence. Which is why I said "I believe" they screwed up. In time, I believe it will likely be revealed, but I could be wrong.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

What evidence do you have to make an assessment that it is likely?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

The special evidence that Daily Kos told him of course!

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

**** yourself. Seriously, right now. Go find a quiet place, light a few candles, and have at.

I want to just be clear - anyone who was ever not found guilty in a court of law, or was not charged by the government, is in fact innocent, right?

Like Ted Kennedy? Or Bill Clinton? Because we just got through with a big **** thread in which people *insisted* Ted Kennedy was a murderer despite him never being charged.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

actually I prefer infront of the computer, with a fan on and some napkins near by, but thank you for thinking about my alone time with some romance.

Now to the matter at hand we are all mocking your double standard. You apparently have more information then the prosecution as to Delay's guilt, perhaps you should have shared? So Delay is guilty because you say so?

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Maybe it would help if you did have faith in God and know he would get divine Judgment and not such frail mortal justice?

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore