The Glade 4.0

Diamondeye:

1. You can't hard counter Banshee's with Hellions. Those two units do, however, Hard Counter Brood Lords. Pre-Igniters reduce Brood Lord damage to Zero. 1 Hellion Per 3 Brood Lords will effectively stop their damage.

2. Brood Lords move slower than Battle Cruisers and Overseers. You can tear them apart with Mutalisks, Vikings, and Phoenixes.

3. Brood Lords can't be metamorphosed while you're at the Supply Cap, which means when you need them most you have to get units killed to produce them.

4. Ultralisks can only hit 2 targets at a time.

5. Ultralisks, despite being the highest armor target in the game, deal less damage over a 10 second interval than 2 non-stimmed marauders. Marauders, Immortals, Stalkers all get bonus damage vs. Armored Targets.

6. Surrounding the ball still doesn't "solve" the problem. As I mentioned, how Terran Units groups is specifically designed to mitigate the Surround.

7. IdrA was at 3/3/3 and 3/3 upgrades vs. Drewbie's 2/3 Marines, 1/1 Mech, 0/0 Air.

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Not gonna watch the whole video; did IdrA have the ultralisk-specific armor upgrade?

'Cause if so, the marines should've been doing 1 damage per attack. Even stim can't make that amazing.

So it's the marauders who are doing the damage, not the marines.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Idra did not have a good army composition. He was full of fail in that video. I've seen him use some impressive tactics, but that wasn't an example of it. I don't know what happened during the rest of the match so there's no context, but he seemed to be doing the same thing that wasn't working despite himself in that clip. It doesn't mean MMM is broken. People were saying the same thing during the beta, but then they figured out how to reply to it. I doubt I'll convince anyone otherwise though...

I can't wait untill I get back home next week so I can play SC2 again. I haven't touched the MP again at all since the release.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

In watching the whole video yeah it's obvious that idrA was just unable to get the surrounds going almost all game long. He was stubbornly sticking to Ultras, which I get that you've invested a lot into them, but once the light clicked on getting BL's he won handily.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Wwen:

Sure, IdrA made some bad choices. So did Drewbie. I'd have produced more Air as soon as I saw Mutalisks, because Vikings provide better map control vs. Air. That said, 3M Terran is still ridiculously competitive by itself.

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Don't see what this has to do with the fact that 2 mutalisks and an Overseer can do to Banshees what Vikings do to brood lords. Moreover, in your video the Terran player didn't have any Hellions, and in any case since Brood Lords also can't be retaliated against by anything on the ground except marines and Thors and both of those are heavily out ranged, there's really no reason Hellions shouldn't stop the damage. You should ahve something else with the Brood Lords anyhow; single unit swarms of anything other than BCs, Carriers, Void Rays, Mutalisks, and sometimes Vikings suck, and even in those cases you usually need a detector or a specialist unit with them to deal with cloaking and other issues.



Which again isn't really relevant to the "ball". Then you're going air, and if you're doing that the Zerg player should be getting mutalisks at least. Not only that but one of those is a Zerg unit and so has nothing to do with Zerg balance, 1 is antiair only, and one is antiair only when it's attacking air targets. That's their purpose. Do you think Zerg air units should just not have counters?



Which, if you're the Zerg, should be fairly normal. That's why they're called the Swarm. Zerglings, esspecially, are throwaway units. In any case, I have yet to hit the supply cap in any game, and I don't recall if I've even built enough depots, pylons, or Overlords to get over 180.



So? This just speaks to why you should not engage in channeled areas whenever you can avoid it. 2x11=22; 2x3=6. An opponent is likely to have 6 medevacs; he's not very likely to have 11, at elast not all in one place.



And it only costs 300 minerals and 200 gas per.

For 60 supply then, you get 10 Ultralisks, at a cost of 3000/2000, which, with 3 hatcheries can be built in 140 seconds; 9 of them being ready after the first 70 seconds. To get the same 60 supply of marines, marauders and medevacs in a roughly even ratio of, say 6 medevacs, 12 marauders, and 24 marines you'd spend 3000 minerals and 900 gas.. except that to build them all in comparable times you'd need 6 barracks with tech labs for the Marauders, 3 starports with reactors or 5 without for the dropships, and 4 barracks with reactors for the marines, or 8 without reactors, plus of course 100 of each resource for the stims and 50 of each for marauder concussion.

Therefore, disregarding the medevac reactor upgrade, marine shields, or burrow for ultralisks and damage or armor upgrades for either side, the Terrans need to spend 6025 minerals and 2100 gas to tech to medevacs, build them, and build the units. By comparison, to get the 10 Ultralisks, the Zerg player need only spend 4675/2500.. and that's including 5 drones to make the spawning pool, queen's nest, ultralisk cavern, evolution chamber and 2 hatcheries. That means the Terran player only gets a 400 advantage in gas, but is at a 1325 mineral disadvantage, and because the 2 hatcheries can occupy additional bases the Zerg player can harvest 3 bases, while the Terran player would need to build 2 more Command Centers at an additional cost of 800 minerals to do the same. MULES might make up some of this, but they don't speed up gas production and while the Terran player needs less, his refineries cost 3 times what an extractor does for the Zerg, and of course MULES mean additional mineral cost in upgrades to orbital command.

Not onyl that, but a mix of 3 units is just better than 1 mass of identical units regardless of tiers. I don't see any reason that you should be able to tech to ultralisks and then just roll over Terran infantry just because it's a higher tier when you really haven't invested more than comparable resorces. This is especially true when you start counting things like creep bonus, the fact that terrain contours make a real difference in effectiveness, and the fact that Ultralisks are really designed to engage armored ground targets.



Except that it does, and the video series showed it. You're incorrect on this, especially since it isn't a problem that a mix of units is more effective than one unit type.



In which case IdrA wasted a lot of time and resources on upgrading air units he wasn't using, ground ranged attacks he didn't seem to be using, and the Terran player wisely didn't waste time upgrading air weapons that he also wasn't using, air armor since IdrA wasn't attacking his dropships to any meaningful degree, and didn't spend much on Mech that he didn't seem to be using a lot of.

Moreover, that highlights another advantage of Zerg; 5 weapon/armor upgrades vs 6 upgrade areas for Terran; Protoss also get 5 but shields are more expensive.

Again, the bottom line here is that until IdrA figured out that attacking through choke points wasn't working, he got his *** kicked because he was really fighting a series of 2 or 3 Ultralisk battles against a huge number of marines and marauders rather than 1 big battle and when he did fight in the open it worked, your complaints about it not working notwithstanding.

Like I said, if there are disproportionate numbers of maps where its easy to channel Zerg units like that, then maybe Zerg units need toughening, but I have little sympathy for a guy who decides to make a ton of ground-only melee units to face units getting healed by air support and then attacks those same units with their ranged weapons hrough a tight cannalizing terrain. Coming through a chokepoint should be a disadvantage.

In real life, obstacles are typically emplaced for precisely this reason, to disrupt, fix, turn, and block (those are your 4 doctrinal obstacle types, and 4 reasons for emplacing a minefield, btw) an enemy force, and you would naturally tie them in with chokepoints like the low areas or ramps of SC2 although they're rarely so nicely designed in advance for you.

In fact, at the NTC there are numerous areas like this with their own little slang names like Alpha Bravo pass where M1s get torn up by "T-80s" trying to squeeze through a pair of little tiny passes. To be fair this has a lot to do with the MILES gear as well and how it gives the OPFOR and advantage, but the bottom line is that if you attack like that expect to take serious damage. If you do it because you have to it's the unfortunate reality; if you do it when you don't you're inexperienced, untrained, or stupid.

This is actually a problem with SC, SC2; it rewards micromanagement skill, twitch speed, and APM excessively. This promotes paper comparisons like this when the guy with the micro skill doesn't work, which causes people to ignore larger picture issues like terrain, and overall economic balance, especially since the vast bulk of players aren't playing with anything like the speed of IdrA. A change that accommadates a few players like him and their issues can have very different effects for casual players. There's also the issue of how any change would affect Zerg vs. Protoss matchups.

Still, from my own experience with Zerg, I agree that there are some problems. Right now it it was me I'd start with boosting every unit except Zerglings by 10% life, cut the cost of the spawning pool by 50 minerals, and look seriously at maps to see how much ground cannalizing is taking place and if opportunities to surround are adequate for Zerg players. Terrain should, across all maps, be equitable to all 3 races.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Just when I start thinking I'm getting the hang of things, 3 straight decisive losses. /mutter

Diamondeye:

You do know that IdrA had no less than 17 Mutalisks after the first 6 minutes of the game, right? And that he was using Banelings, Speedlings, and Ultralisks vs. the Ball the entire time?

As for the best single Unit Combination in the game? It's Mass Stalker's.

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Zerg needs a lair for Air Units and Overseers, which is roughly the cost of a factory but yields no additional units without a Roach Warren or Hydra Den or Spire or Infestation Pit, all of which increase the original cost. Vikings are Tier 1 Air. All Zerg Air are Tier 2 Units. More to the point, Banshees deal splash damage to ground units and get bonuses that Zerg units simply don't have.Brood Lords are susceptible to Turrets and Ghosts in particular. Snipe is really effective and ranges Broodlings even without Cloak.You always have Corruptors with Brood Lords, since they're a mutated unit instead of a spawned unit. And it's 300 Minerals, 250 Gas, and a double spawn sequence to produce a Brood Lord. They're slower than Cruisers. Stalker's are the best Single Unit Swarm in the Game. They're better than ALL of the Units you mentioned in equal Supply, especially because of Blink and their bonus damage vs. Armored Targets.Phoenixes have Graviton Beams, which you should never underestimate. Nony uses it quite devastatingly for Gatherer and Queen Harass vs. Zerg. And Phoenixes can move while firing, which gives them a huge micro-advantage over every other Air Unit in the game.Not have Counters? I think the two Tier 3 Zerg Units, which are both Ground Damage Only, shouldn't be Hard Countered by Tier 1 Units at 50% of their production cost or less. Again, 2 Marauders per Ultralisk is Overkill. 2 Hellions per Brood Lord is Overkill.I live at the Supply Cap as Zerg. Any game that goes past 9 minutes has me dumping excess minerals and larvae into Overlords for at least 60 continuous seconds. And after that, I'm always within 20-25 minerals of the Supply Cap.Heh, Ultralisks don't hit quite that hard relative to say Marauders or Marines under the effect of Stims. And they do horrible damage to light Units. They will decimate Thors, if they can engage, but they have an attack range of 1, which is generally mitigated by anything in the ball or the Zerg Swarm.I have 6 Barracks out by 30 Supply. A Zerg player is nowhere close to capable of producing Ultralisks at that point. It's a macro-heavy race that requires 3-5 Hatcheries worth of Gas in the late game ... if not more.3000 Minerals, 2000 Gas plus 150 minerals in Drones, 350 minerals for Lair/Hive, 350 gas for Lair/Hive, 100 Minerals for IP, 100 Gas for IP, 200 Minerals for Ultralisk Cavern, 150 Gas for Ultralisk Cavern, and an 75 minerals Evolution Chamber. And none of that negates the fact that it's 80 seconds of mutation time for a Lair and 120 seconds for a Hive, plus the fact that you can't build the requisite Tier 2 production facilities before you have that Lair.And the Zerg Player had 4 different Units in the fight and couldn't anything against the ball.Except it didn't ... when Idra finally got a Surround, Drewbie had already lost the South East Corner; and Idra still gave up 42 supply of Ultralisks in the Exchange for an equal number of supply from Drewbie.The entire game was Terran Mech ... Thors and Siege Tanks. As for the upgrades, IdrA had Mutalisks and Corruptors in the air from the time his Spire Went Up. He cancelled a Hydralisk Den as a reaction to something Drewbie did.5 Upgrade Areas for Zerg, plus 2 for Roaches, 2 for Zerglings, 1 for Hydralisks, 2 for Infestors, 1 for Utralisks ... Upgrade areas are nearly dead even. And Zerg and Protoss can't research multiple unit-type upgrades without wasting resources on non-production facilities. Terran will always have more Tech Labs.Except, the had to keep butting his head against that wall to keep Drewbie contained and counter the Siege Crawl from Drewbie's mech. If Idra doesn't throw his units against the wall until he can out macro the Terran, he loses Map control to Siege Tanks and Thors.

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Happened to me last night too. I was on a 5 win roll, took a break and dropped 3 straight. One of which I should have won, but the other two I got just mangled. Badly.



The terran got lucky that he spotted the muta on that initial push or the Thors may not have made it out in time to prevent the muta's from doing anything. idrA did keep trying to wedge in through the chokes to kill the terran defense. Later in the match you see what happens when he gets a good surround.

Mass Stalkers is pretty sweet, yesterday I was introduced to mass Hydras. God they hurt in numbers.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

The thing with Mass Stalker's is that's easy and really usable by even novice players. 10 Gates, 1 Forge, and 2 Nexuses, and you're golden for a very, very long time. You need Immortals, Marauders, or Mass Speedlings to counter Stalkers, and even then, Stalkers are just rough for Zerglings.

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They are my staple unit. I use them so much I tend to think I need to diversify a bit and try charge zealots more. Blink stalkers paired with Colossi are fantastic for hit and run or base assaults.

You mention a forge, I'm finally getting better at doing my upgrading.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

I didn't go back to the beginning and watch those videos. In the video you showed he was massing Ultralisks, and he kept doing that until it occured to him to make some Brood Lords. I know he was using Zerglings but frankly those are just Ultralisks writ small and numerous; they don't really make for much variety.

Mass stalker may indeed be very good but I have no idea what this has to do with the matter at hand other than you just making an assertion for no reason but to contradict me. Ease of use is about the only advantage I see over massing carriers or battlecruisers.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I've never understood how Protoss could be bad at upgrading.

Terran have so many choices, and frequently use units from all the categories at once, so it's often tough to devote resources to upgrading, or you skip a unit type altogether and thus don't need to upgrade it, whatever.

But how does a Protoss not upgrade shields? It applies to all units and buildings, and it increases the replenishable HP buffer. If that's not a no-brainer, I don't know what is.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Diamondeye:

At equal amounts of Supply, Stalker's move faster and deal more damage and soak more damage than Cruisers or Carriers. Plus, Carriers require a lot of Micro to keep interceptor production up ...

And Speedlings are an incredible contain Unit, sometimes more effective than Force Fields. And they're awesome for harasses in small openings. That said, given the amount of Macro going on in the Idra Drewbie Game, Idra could have done nothing about a Siege Crawl, especially not on that map.

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I don't see how stalkers could possibly move faster than carriers or BCs since they can travel in a straight line while Stalkers have to move around terrain. I'd also like to know how they soak more damage. I realize they can get blink but that still takes up time while you try to get them all to blink across an obstacle.

As for speedlings, they may very well be a good contain unit but again, they are ground melee. Force them through a narrow defile and they get contained rather than doing the containing. Later on IdrA manages to get them around behind the Terran while the Ultras engage from the front and again the effectiveness goes way up.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Diamondeye:

Stalker's move in a straight line if you know how to blink. I've always got an Observer with my Stalker's for Sight. Move > Queue Blink > Queue Move and they just blink in order without having to wait ...

That said, it takes 160 Damage to kill a Stalker. It takes 550 damage to kill a Battle Cruiser, which costs 3.5 Times as many minerals and 6 times as much gas.

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You know for me it's one of those things that, my APM is very low and my brain is very full of what I want to do. I've tried to simplify and focus on basic macroing. Keep making probes, keep units pumping out, keep ahead of supply, keep money low. I've gotten very good at that, comparative to how I was playing, and it keeps me busy. Next was keeping my basic objectives in mind. get warpgate tech quickly, quick stalker, scout, get blink, tech to robotics, get prism for a drop, get observers, get colossi. Now I'm filling in the details, which includes upgrading. While I agree upgrading is very important, if my macro is crap I lose, and 1/1 upgrades dont save me, so they get a lower priority. Not to mention I rarely cannon so forge is an afterthought. Soon they'll be second nature though!

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Huge noob question incoming:

How do you properly micro hellions?

Last night I had a pack of 4, non upgraded, against some zerglings attempting some early harassment. So here is how it went in my head.

Move the hellions away while the zerglings follow, with all hellions selected, right click on a chasing zergling so that they'll turn around & open fire quickly then click in the original path to get them moving again as quick as possible....

However the results were basically that my hellions turned around in a dead stop, waited for what seemed like forever before firing, and by the time they finished firing they were surrounded & my pack of 4 hellions took out maybe 5 zerglings before being killed.

Am I missing something obvious?

We need a "Starcraft for dummies" thread. I am having fun with the game but I've got no idea wtf any of you are talking about. But I want to!

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Hokanu
Duty is a magnificent blessing because it is the sign of trust from the universe.
END OF LINE.

Im with you Hokanu. Still playing through the basic campaign. Most the non terran units are not named along the way, and I didn't play the original.

Move and stop. They fire immediately when you hit stop. At least thats what I do, but terran really isnt my race.

Edit: To be clear, move and hit the "s" button to stop. Right after they fire you move again. Im not sure if you have to wait for the animation to finish to deal full damage, I dont believe you do.

I dont think anyone would mind noob questions here? I ask them all the time =P

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

I found these two video's earlier today and they seem to be very useful. Especially the first one, I didn't know you could have different types of units in the same control group & tab between them.

[youtube]4suhhh6DbEo[/youtube]

This one talks about a different keybinding called Grid, I'm going to try. This keybinding should hopefully break my constant clicking on units instead of their hotkey's.

[youtube]zBHBsBS__1M[/youtube]

@Dash

Thanks. I hadn't been making use of the stop command. I had thought perhaps it might have something to do with needing to attack move(something I don't do a lot of, yet!) Thanks for the help. I'll try it.

Holy crap, this looks very useful for a noob like me! It's a custom game, called Unit Map. Designed for testing unit v unit.

Go to multiplayer, go to create game under the custom games, and then just search for unit and you'll find this map/gametype.

[youtube]nIvdhar3hhg[/youtube]

This is a build order tester I use sometimes:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=126942

You can practice your builds quickly and easily. Download it and then I drag it onto my SCII icon to launch it. If you screw up you can quickly reset it.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe