Khross wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I don't see how scouting has anything to do with it. Ok, he's making zerglings and he's going to rush with them. I knew that anyhow.
That's not necessarily true. In fact, I think you're confusing an opening Timing Attack with a Rush. There's a lot you can learn by Scouting instead of Turtling Up and waiting for your first Scan from an Orbital Command.
1. When did he build his Spawning Pool?
2. Has the Zerg player started another Hatchery?
3. What Mutation Chambers (Roach Warren, Spire, Hydralisk Den, Infestation Pit, Ultralisk Cavern, Baneling Nest) does he have on the table?
All nice, but really not terribly useful. None of this tells me anything I can really use. Ok, in theory I can figure out what he's going to make first and go for antiair or antiground but in reality I'm just wasting an SCV that could be harvesting, not to mention having to take time to control it. Countering what one guy does may or may not also counter his partner(s) and they may or may not even be coordinating with each other.
I also think you're under the misimpression that turtling is involved; I'm actually trying to expand as early as possible. I just have to make an assload of general purpose forces to keep the expansion.
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4. How many workers does he have on Gas? How many Active Gas harvesters does he have?
That's really irrelevant to me. I'm going to try to kill the harvesters regardless.
Diamondeye wrote:
Maybe it's the different level you play at Khross, but at my level the pattern is highly predictable. Zerg and Protoss players are going to hit you with a rush; the only question is exactly how many units they'll build. Terrans are going to go for a reaper attack.
Again, I think you're confusing a Rush with a Timing Attack. It's only truly a Rush if it has a high probability of catching you totally off guard and occurs before 20 Supply. Anything in the 20-30 Supply Range, even Mass Reapers, is a Timing Attack.[/quote]
Which really is irrelevant, since they're both exceedingly fast and essentially dictate your opening moves to prevent them. They're also virtual guarantees in the lower leagues. It doesn't matter what you call it; if your opponent is Terran you have to build defenses around your harvesters, if zerg or protess you have to plug your ramp. The point is that at this level, your opponent may be doing almost any kind of crazy-ass ****. He may have a ton of gas going because he's trying out a new race and thinks he needs more of it than he does.
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Diamondeye wrote:
The only time scouting would be of any real benefit before I can get Orbital Command is if my enemy is random.
This statement is categorically false. Is the Zerg going Speedlings or is he holding off for a Roach Rush or Baneling Bust? Is the Protoss player going 2 Gate with Cybernetics Core or 4 Gate Zealots? Where's the Proxy Pylon? Is the Protoss player going for early DT and a Warp Prism? Can you see the Observer if there are no upgrades to the Robotics Facility? These are all things you can learn with a Scout. You can see what Upgrades are being researched, what units are being produced, and you can be proactive rather than reactive.
If there was any actual use in knowing them, it might help. Proactive vs reative has nothing to do with it since my tactics are based on what I want to do, not what he's doing. I'm going to build up a force, go in, and punch out his expansion first, regardless of what he's building. I can only do things so fast, and wasting time screwing around controlling a scout is not useful. For example, if I'm doing Protoss I'm going to get a bunch of Zealots and Stalkers and defend myself and my expansions while getting a couple stargates up plus a fleet beacon, and then when I have a decent number of void rays with speed and upgrades, I go expansion hunting. By that time he's usually depleted a lot of minerals from his starting base and killing an expansion makes a lot of people quit.
Diamondeye wrote:
A wall probably won't matter until you can get Siege Tanks in 2v2. And if there's an All-In 5 Rax Reaper rush, all the time you spent on the front door is wasted. And, what the opponent is doing or planning is something good scouting gives up.
If you're playing a single opponent and he's terran then yes, no need for the wall. If you have any opponents that are not terrans then the wall is mandatory. Otherwise the marines you have early just can't stop.. well much of anything.
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For example, I send out a Scout (Drone, Probe, or SCV) at 9 Minerals and another 15. Hopefully, it's the same Unit. If it's not, then it's still just a 50 Mineral Loss, which is more than offset by the information available.
I don't know what you're doing with that information. Maybe you change your build order or something, but I don't have enough time to be doing all that, much less trying to come up with a new build order.
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Let's say my Scout gets to a Terran Base and I see the following.
1. I'm at 10 Supply. There's a Barracks and a Refinery going up in the Terran Base. He's going to be at 9 Supply, because he built a Supply Depot at 8 and used that same SCV to drop a Barracks immediately. The early gas tells me he's either going to do a Reaper Rush or a Marauder Rush.
2. At 15, my Scout sees 2 Refineries before he has Orbital Command? I know he's going 5 or 6 Rack Reaper that will transition into Mass Marine, Marauder, Med Vacs.
Or, if my Scout gets to a Protoss Base at 9 Supply, I'll see 1 Warp Gate. If I see a Forge, I know he's going Cannon Wall to Air. That Scout I'll hide and check again every 10-15 seconds to see what his second structure happens to be. Cybernetics Core means one of the following: Void Rays, Mass Stalkers, or Dark Templars.
At 15 Supply, I know even more, because the Second Gate will be down and the first Star Gate will be warping in if it's Void Rays.
After that, Scouting is done with Scans, Sacrificial Flying Units (Overlords, Overseers, or a Viking), and Observers.
None of this would tell me much of anything. Making void rays? Duh; A protoss player is going to do that every time. I have yet to see any protoss players do this "4 gate" thing; what I HAVE seen is them make some humongoues number of gates and never actually make more than a few token units. In fact I ahve a bad habit of getting partnered with these people and then they're screaming for help because they thought they had half an hour to just make buildings.
Same with a Terran; I honestly don't see what difference it makes if he goes for marines or banshees or what; either way I probably have to make some of everything because he may not be partnered with a Terran player. Ok, he's got a ton of air, but if his partner(s) have an assload of ground units I still need to make some siege tanks.
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