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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:57 am 
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Vindicarre wrote:
It's irrelevant.
As RD stated, any public safety issue would not arise by the burning of the Qur'an; it would arise through the agency of others not immediate or direct) and it's obvious that the people in the theater are put in danger by the "false fire" statement. Terrorist threats don't rise.


If that is true, then why did General Patreus specifically state that proceeding with the burning could cost American soldier lives?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:01 pm 
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Perhaps because Petraeus, rightly, isn't issuing a statement about, nor is he concerning himself with the Constitutionality of the situation?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Because it could.

However, the difference between that and costing trampled people their lives is that the trampled people died as a result of non-criminal responses to the cry of "Fire!"

The responses to Koran burning which would cost soldiers their lives would not be non-criminal.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
So do you believe the numerous threats from various radical islamist groups were idle?

No, but as Vindi said, the danger to the public arises only through the agency of an intervening third-party. First Amendment protections aren't limited based on what some other guy might do if he finds your speech offensive.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Looks like we may get a somewhat related test case after all:

The protester who burned pages from the Koran outside a planned mosque near Ground Zero has been fired from NJTransit, sources and authorities said Tuesday.

...NJ Transit said Fenton was fired but wouldn't give specifics. "Mr. Fenton's public actions violated New Jersey Transit's code of ethics," an agency statement said. "NJ Transit concluded that Mr. Fenton violated his trust as a state employee and therefore [he] was dismissed."

...If Fenton was fired for burning the Koran while off-duty, his First Amendment rights probably were violated, Chris Dunn of the New York Civil Liberties Union said.


As the folks at the Volokh Conspiracy point out, this would be a slightly different test under Supreme Court precedent than for a law against anyone burning the Qu'ran, since Fenton is a government employee:

The Volokh Conspiracy wrote:
The relevant First Amendment test for when the government may fire an employee for off-duty expression on a matter of public concern (such as the expression here) is unfortunately quite vague: The government may restrict such speech, but only if the restriction is “necessary for their employers to operate efficiently and effectively” (with “necessary” being read a bit loosely). It’s hard for me to see much of an argument that Fenton’s expression interferes with the employer’s effectiveness by undermining public confidence in the employer; Fenton isn’t a spokesman for the employer, or in a position where the public must be able to count on his fairness in exercising discretion with regard to members of the public (e.g., a police officer).

The one argument I can see the government potentially persuasively making is that Fenton’s expression might lead to a risk of terrorist attack on NJ Transit trains; such a “heckler’s veto” might be permissible when it comes to the government’s actions as employer, as opposed to the government’s actions as sovereign policing the speech of private people. But if that’s so, then unfortunately it’s one other item we have to add to the growing Extremist Muslim Thugs Win file; and unfortunately the bigger the file gets, the more incentive the thugs — including at some point thugs of other ideological stripes — have to keep being violent and threatening violence.

It may turn out this guy was fired for other reasons, but if not, I hope he sues the *** off NJ Transit. And I hope like hell the courts don't use the looser "government as employer" test to create a heckler's veto here.


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