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 Post subject: Old Habits die hard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:36 am 
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http://reason.com/archives/2010/09/15/t ... ort-terror

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Torture Tort Terror
Obama uses national security as a cover for violating people's rights.
Jacob Sullum | September 15, 2010

During his presidential campaign, Barack Obama criticized the Bush administration for its excessive secrecy, noting that it had "invoked a legal tool known as the 'state secrets' privilege more than any other previous administration to get cases thrown out of civil court." Obama also promised to end "extraordinary rendition," a practice through which "we outsource our torture to other countries."

But last week the Obama administration used the state secrets privilege to block a lawsuit by five former captives who say they were tortured as a result of extraordinary rendition. Although candidate Obama surely would have been outraged, President Obama is for some reason less concerned about abuses of executive power.

"To build a better, freer world," Obama the candidate wrote in a 2007 Foreign Affairs essay, "we must first behave in ways that reflect the decency and aspirations of the American people. This means ending the [practice] of shipping away prisoners in the dead of night to be tortured in far-off countries."

It turned out Obama meant that he, like his predecessor, would seek assurances that detainees transferred to other countries would not be mistreated. After all, why would governments that routinely torture their prisoners lie about it?

Obama's broken promise sheds light on his determination to suppress a lawsuit by five men who sued the Boeing subsidiary Jeppesen DataPlan over its role in helping the CIA arrange prisoner flights during the Bush administration. The lead plaintiff, Binyam Mohamed, is an Ethiopian citizen and legal U.K. resident who was arrested in Pakistan on immigration charges in 2002. He says he was turned over to the CIA, which flew him to Morocco, where he was held for 18 months and subjected to "severe physical and psychological torture."

Mohamed, who was later imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay without trial for five years before being released, says Moroccan security agents beat him, broke his bones, and cut him with a scalpel all over his body, including his genitals, after which they would pour a "hot stinging liquid" into the wounds. His four co-plaintiffs tell similar stories of abuse at the hands of Moroccan, Egyptian, Jordanian, and American officials.

Even if every word these men say is true, the Obama administration argues, they cannot be allowed to pursue their claims because doing so might endanger national security. Last week the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit narrowly accepted this maximalist position, dismissing the lawsuit rather than letting it proceed based on publicly available evidence.

An administration that was truly concerned about excessive secrecy would have waited to see if either side in the lawsuit actually needed privileged information to make its case. Instead Obama, like George W. Bush before him, insisted that the mere possibility was enough to deprive torture victims of a legal remedy.

In May the Obama administration used a similar argument to block a lawsuit by Maher Arar, a Canadian engineer whom U.S. officials erroneously identified as a member of Al Qaeda and sent to Syria, where he was imprisoned for a year and repeatedly beaten. Although the details of Arar's case have been public for years, Acting Solicitor General Neal Katyal nevertheless urged the Supreme Court not to hear his appeal, citing "significant national security concerns."

Specifically, Katyal worried that addressing Arar's claims would require courts to "review sensitive intergovernmental communications, second-guess whether Syrian officials were credible enough for United States officials to rely on them, and assess the credibility of any information provided by foreign officials concerning petitioner's likely treatment in Syria, as well as the motives and sincerity of the United States officials who concluded that petitioner could be removed to Syria consistent with [the Convention Against Torture]."

Given President Obama's plans to continue extraordinary rendition under a different name, you can see why he'd rather not delve into questions like these. But candidate Obama told us to be wary of presidents who use national security as a cover for violating people's rights.

Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason and a nationally syndicated columnist.


Wishin' and hopin',
and changin' and hopin'.



It kills me deep inside to know that many libertarians voted for Obama because they honestly thought he'd be better on these types of human and civil rights issues. I don't know that they "swung" the vote at all, but the very idea that they were so duped pains me.

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 Post subject: Re: Old Habits die hard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:03 am 
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DFK! wrote:
It kills me deep inside to know that many libertarians voted for Obama because they honestly thought he'd be better on these types of human and civil rights issues.

Count me among that number. He's still better than the alternative (McCain) on these issues, but I have to admit I completely misjudged Obama's own intentions. I sincerely hope he's eventually prosecuted as an accessory-after-the-fact, right along with Bush, Cheney, and the rest.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:41 am 
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I'm curious what people think about why it is that the courts have dismissed the cases?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:13 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
I'm curious what people think about why it is that the courts have dismissed the cases?

Each case has its own reasoning, of course, but as a big-picture explanation, I'd say that the courts' decisions reflect two trends: (i) a shift in the legal/political culture toward more unfettered Executive power generally, and (ii) the adoption of a semi-permanent "wartime" political and legal psychology in response to 9/11.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:14 pm 
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I voted against him, but I considered his stated positions on these issues as a big consolation prize :(


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:15 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I'm curious what people think about why it is that the courts have dismissed the cases?

Each case has its own reasoning, of course, but as a big-picture explanation, I'd say that the courts' decisions reflect two trends: (i) a shift in the legal/political culture toward more unfettered Executive power generally, and (ii) the adoption of a semi-permanent "wartime" political and legal psychology in response to 9/11.


I completely agree with this. It's rather frightening.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
I voted against him, but I considered his stated positions on these issues as a big consolation prize :(



Ditto

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:24 pm 
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So let me ask, what is Obama's motive for doing this.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:30 pm 
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Dash:

More unfettered Executive power.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I'm curious what people think about why it is that the courts have dismissed the cases?

Each case has its own reasoning, of course, but as a big-picture explanation, I'd say that the courts' decisions reflect two trends: (i) a shift in the legal/political culture toward more unfettered Executive power generally, and (ii) the adoption of a semi-permanent "wartime" political and legal psychology in response to 9/11.


I completely agree with this. It's rather frightening.


I think this started happening long before 9/11. 9/11 just was the shot in the arm to let the Executive be more overt about it.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
More unfettered Executive power.

I think that's part of it, but I think it mostly comes down to political expediency. We've been at war for nine years, and we've done a lot of lot of horrible and illegal sh*t in that time. A full accounting in court would likely implicate hundreds of people in both parties and at every level of the security structure, right up to the President himself. The process would consume the political world for years, undermine our ongoing efforts in Afghanistan, prevent the Democrats from accomplishing any major aspect of their domestic policy agenda, and likely result in a Republican sweep in 2012.

My guess is that Obama decided he'd rather do health care.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:42 pm 
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:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
I think this started happening long before 9/11. 9/11 just was the shot in the arm to let the Executive be more overt about it.
So you're blaming Clinton? *boggles*

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:50 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Dash:

More unfettered Executive power.


He could have the power and not exercise it. Clearly it's going to be a hit on him with his base. What's he getting out of it? Perhaps he'd take a hit as being a candy *** dove if he stopped?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:52 pm 
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I was with you up until:

RangerDave wrote:
and likely result in a Republican sweep in 2012.


Why do you think it would be a Republican sweep? Presumably if both sides are just as at fault, and one might assume there is more "dirt" on the Republican side purely due to the length of time of Bush in office vs. Obama.

This brings up an interesting topic, however. Which do you believe would be better for the country?

1. A full investigation, airing out all the dirty laundry and providing accountability to those who acted wrongly. Understanding that most likely this kind of accounting would GREATLY hamper our standing in the world community and our relations with at least the middle east, if not many other countries. That on top of the turmoil created within our own political arena, potentially driving voter confidence and apathy to new lows and highs respectively. But potentially having the long term result of cleaning up the system, but most likely by a slew of additional laws/regulations on conduct.

2. Sweeping it under the rug. Prevent the majority of cases/investigation from going forward and in general attempting to suppress the whole thing. Understanding that this makes it easier to potentially do other bad things in the future as is expedient, depending on the individual morals of upcoming leadership in the Executive and Legislative branches. Basically leaving change (if any) to happen slowly through the usual evolution of politics.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:01 pm 
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Dash wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
Dash:

More unfettered Executive power.


He could have the power and not exercise it. Clearly it's going to be a hit on him with his base. What's he getting out of it? Perhaps he'd take a hit as being a candy *** dove if he stopped?


Blocking these cases maintains the power. Allowing these cases to proceed would show that the Executive has hidden these items from the public, possibly causing a public outcry demanding change. In any event, Congress may look at it as an opportunity to score points with the voters by showing that they are on the side of America's angels (at a time when Congress' popularity is at ebb) and reign in much of the Executive's extra-Constitutional power that has crept in over the past decades.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:08 am 
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I'm not saying he wants to be able to do anything and everything he wants consciously, but reversing this would be going out of his way to make his job harder. Few people are disciplined enough to do this. It usually takes someone else to impose restrictions on people.

While Obama's pissing me off in this regard, I expect nothing less. Congress and the courts are to blame.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:32 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
More unfettered Executive power.

I think that's part of it, but I think it mostly comes down to political expediency. We've been at war for nine years, and we've done a lot of lot of horrible and illegal sh*t in that time. A full accounting in court would likely implicate hundreds of people in both parties and at every level of the security structure, right up to the President himself. The process would consume the political world for years, undermine our ongoing efforts in Afghanistan, prevent the Democrats from accomplishing any major aspect of their domestic policy agenda, and likely result in a Republican sweep in 2012.

My guess is that Obama decided he'd rather do health care.


Which I still don't have.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:40 pm 
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Dash wrote:
So let me ask, what is Obama's motive for doing this.


Um.. being a statist?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:41 am 
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Khross wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I think this started happening long before 9/11. 9/11 just was the shot in the arm to let the Executive be more overt about it.
So you're blaming Clinton? *boggles*


No, it started far before Clinton. The current iteration's roots are in the Cold War.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:51 am 
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Dash wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
Dash:

More unfettered Executive power.


He could have the power and not exercise it. Clearly it's going to be a hit on him with his base. What's he getting out of it? Perhaps he'd take a hit as being a candy *** dove if he stopped?


Let's be honest. Obama could commit any atrocity live on TV, blame Bush, and his base would still be with him. The American sports team mentality is alive and well with politics. Just like if Obama did something positive- the other side would spin it to suit their views.

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