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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:08 am 
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Of course, not an official caucus within the Senate, but an amazingly astute description of the sponsors of the Responsible Death Tax Act, as described in article in WJS.

A Very Grim Reaper wrote:
While Washington debates whether to raise taxes on incomes and dividends next year, another huge tax increase looms as an even grimmer reaper: The death tax, which is currently zero, but will return to a rate of 55% next year if Congress fails to act.

Some Democrats don't want to stop there. The Senate Redistribution Caucus—Bernie Sanders (Vermont), Sheldon Whitehouse (Rhode Island), Al Franken (Minnesota), Sherrod Brown (Ohio) and Tom Harkin (Iowa)—are sponsoring the Responsible Death Tax Act to take the federal rate to 65% on large estates. Why stop at two-thirds, guys? Clearly, you think the government has a right to every penny a man makes in a lifetime.

These same five plus Budget Chairman Kent Conrad of North Dakota also want to retroactively apply a death tax to January 1, 2010 on the estates of those who have already died this year. Their revenue grab gives new meaning to the phrase grave robbers. Too bad George Steinbrenner, who died earlier this year and whose family will be able to retain control of the New York Yankees in part because of the lack of an estate tax, can't come back from the dead and shout at these guys.

It's not merely the super-wealthy who will pay these rates unless they shelter their assets in foundations the way that Bill Gates and Warren Buffett have. Estates with as little as $1 million in assets would get hit at the reinstated 55% rate. That $1 million has not been indexed for inflation, so each year more and more middle class families would pay when mom or dad dies. For hundreds of thousands of families, $1 million can easily be the value of the family home, furniture, jewelry, cars, plus a 401(k). All of this would be fair game for IRS confiscation.

The ability to transmit wealth from one generation to the next is a core motivation for Americans to save, reinvest in the family business or accumulate wealth. A 1980 study co-authored by White House economic adviser Larry Summers on savings and capital accumulation in the first three-quarters of the 20th century found exactly that: Americans continue to save even as they get older so they can pass their lifetime legacies on to their kids. But if you can't take it with you, and you can't leave your lifetime earnings to your children or grandchildren, the motivation is to spend down wealth to zero at the time of death.

As for breaking up billion-dollar empires of wealth, this tax doesn't even achieve that. A 2010 report by the American Family Business Institute found that the estate tax has the effect of consolidating wealth because so many owners must sell in short order at time of death to pay taxes. The study found that every 4.5 percentage point increase in the estate tax "results in an additional 6,000 small firms being eliminated or absorbed by large firms each year."

Former Congressional Budget Office director Douglas Holtz-Eakin found in a study released last week that raising the death tax rate to 55% will mean a permanent loss of 1.4 million jobs because the tax "lowers capital, savings, and long-term growth." Call it an antistimulus.

Republican Jon Kyl of Arizona and Democrat Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas have proposed a 35% estate tax with a $5 million exemption. A majority in the House and Senate would almost surely opt for that compromise, but Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi won't allow a vote. Last week, Mr. Reid blocked a vote on the Kyl-Lincoln compromise as an amendment to the Democrats' small business bill.

This is one more example of the way the current Democratic majorities put their wealth-spreading agenda above wealth creation, or even economic common sense. If it moves, they tax it. If it stops moving, they tax it more.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:34 am 
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Freakin Kyl, man. Normally he's pretty good. I don't understand why he's trying to compromise on that. The government has no business getting any of that money.

Time to right a letter.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:44 pm 
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I really hate estate taxes. I mean, I get the argument that people shouldn't be able to avoid taxes on capital gains through clever estate planning, but that's easy to prevent - just transfer the original basis of the asset to the heir, so if/when they sell, they pay tax on the whole gain. Voila, no tax avoidance problems. The real rationale for the estate tax is something else entirely though; it's based on beliefs that (i) inherited wealth is somehow illegitimate, and (ii) allowing unlimited inheritance will gradually lead to an entrenched economic aristocracy. To which beliefs, respectively, I say (i) bullsh*t, and (ii) maybe, maybe not, but if so, that's just too f*cking bad.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:06 pm 
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So entitlements are ok as long as its your dead relatives who entitle you?

;-)

I know the counterarguments here, but the above point of view does have some validity.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:09 pm 
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How on earth does one consider keeping your own money a government entitlement?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:13 pm 
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If such a plan goes through, then obviously, if you are wealthy, one should transfer all their wealth outside the country and revoke anything that might tie you or your children to american estate rules before you die, so your children can receive the full benefit of the hard work you performed.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Talya wrote:
If such a plan goes through, then obviously, if you are wealthy, one should transfer all their wealth outside the country and revoke anything that might tie you or your children to american estate rules before you die, so your children can receive the full benefit of the hard work you performed.


1) You pay taxes to transfer your money out of the US (I believe).
2) You're kids would have to leave the Country to benefit. Once the money's transfered to them, they'd have to claim that as income.

My plan is to work until I'm 65, start collecting Social Security, and then NEVER DIE. That'll show 'em.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:33 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
How on earth does one consider keeping your own money a government entitlement?

not a government entitlement--

why does it matter who gives you a handout? Is it any less a handout?
Your relatives earned that money, you didn't.


(Just fyi, playing devil's advocate here, I'm not really sure where I come down on this debate)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:51 pm 
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That isn't even being a good devil's advocate, as the position makes absolutely no sense on any level.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:57 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
Your relatives earned that money, you didn't.


And therefore it should be their right to do what they want with it, without being additionally taxed. (Because they have already paid substantial taxes on that money in the first place, yes?) Don't think of it as taxing the heir, but rather a tax on the dead, a final pissing on their grave, if you will.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:00 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
How on earth does one consider keeping your own money a government entitlement?

not a government entitlement--

why does it matter who gives you a handout? Is it any less a handout?
Your relatives earned that money, you didn't.


(Just fyi, playing devil's advocate here, I'm not really sure where I come down on this debate)


If it's their money, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. We don't get a vote on that. Well, I guess actually we do, which is the problem.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Rifles, lots of them.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:22 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
So entitlements are ok as long as its your dead relatives who entitle you?
...why does it matter who gives you a handout? Is it any less a handout?
Your relatives earned that money, you didn't.

It's not that I'm entitled to my relatives' money in any absolute sense; it's that I should be considered comparatively more entitled to it than strangers (i.e. the government) are. I have no absolute right to decide what happens to my mom's body after she dies either, but unless she leaves instructions, society assumes, as it should, that I have a greater moral right than other people to make such decisions in her absence.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:34 pm 
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Do the dead have rights then? Or do rights cease when life functions cease?

We have SOME assumption that rights continue after death (Copyright law comes to mind IIRC) but aren't corpses considered property? A corpse doesn't have standing do they?

As for RD's argument, 45% control over previous assets is still greater than any other single entitity has (I really don't see 'the government' as a single entity, remember the government is, in theory, of the people)


Ladas, how does the argument not make sense? You may not agree with the conclusion it leads to, but the basic premise --that person A gets something that Person B doesn't simply because of an accident of birth, is one you would hold to.

If I happened to be born to a particular ethnic group am I more deserving than some other. I have no role in chosing my parents. Why am I entitled to their weath after their passing?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:46 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
Do the dead have rights then? Or do rights cease when life functions cease?


No, the dead have no rights.

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We have SOME assumption that rights continue after death (Copyright law comes to mind IIRC) but aren't corpses considered property? A corpse doesn't have standing do they?


No, the dead have no rights. The next of kin has copyright protection.

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As for RD's argument, 45% control over previous assets is still greater than any other single entitity has (I really don't see 'the government' as a single entity, remember the government is, in theory, of the people)


It's about property rights. While I'm alive, I have rights over my money. When I die, it's is universally accepted that my next of kin has the property rights to the same cash. You are not disputing this.

So the bottom line is, what about dying should require a tax? The next of kin has a legitimate claim, where is the legitimacy in the claim for the government (or "the people")? What is the basis for it? The dead already paid taxes on that income. The next of kin will again have to pay taxes when they spend it. What about the act of dying justifies a tax? Again, why does a father giving his son cash justify a tax?

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Ladas, how does the argument not make sense? You may not agree with the conclusion it leads to, but the basic premise --that person A gets something that Person B doesn't simply because of an accident of birth, is one you would hold to.


It's not an "accident of birth". It's due to hard work, long term planning, and love. We complain about government entitlements because, all too often, none of these apply.

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If I happened to be born to a particular ethnic group am I more deserving than some other. I have no role in chosing my parents.


So you no longer support affirmative action?

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Why am I entitled to their weath after their passing?


Think of it more like this - why should an individual who works hard his entire life, pays taxes on his income, pays entitlements to others, not be able to give the remaining fruits of his labor to his children? How many times must a man's money be taxed? I mean, think about the asinine rudeness of this. A man works his whole life and the government robs his children after he dies.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:47 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
Ladas, how does the argument not make sense? You may not agree with the conclusion it leads to, but the basic premise --that person A gets something that Person B doesn't simply because of an accident of birth, is one you would hold to.

You seem to be of the opinion that this is about the entitlement of the of the heirs, which is why your position makes absolutely no sense. This is about the constitutionally protected right of the individual to possession of his property. I should be able to chose the benefactor of my hard work and bestow upon them my property. That I decided to do so as part of my last legal act doesn't matter.

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If I happened to be born to a particular ethnic group am I more deserving than some other. I have no role in chosing my parents. Why am I entitled to their weath after their passing?

You aren't, which is why your position fails (one of several reasons). However, your parents are entitled to determine the benefactors of their possessions, whether it is you, someone else, a charitable organization, or some other group.

But why stop here... perhaps if your parents pay college tuition for you, that should be taxed again as well. After all, why should you be entitled to such a privilege just because your parents chose to work hard and save? That $20 they gave you to buy pizza... should be taxed.

Your argument amounts to a claim that no one owns anything, in particular the fruits of their own labor, they merely borrow it from the government. Is that really the position you hold?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:18 pm 
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I'm so proud.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:58 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
Do the dead have rights then? Or do rights cease when life functions cease?


Irrelevant. Wills are created by living people, not the dead. This has to do with your right while you are alive to determine what will happen to your property upon your death.

In other words, you don't have any rights as a dead person because you are unable to exercise them in any way. The will is an exercise of the rights you had while you were living. Not having rights after you die does not mean the rights you did have as a living person disappear retroactively.

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If I happened to be born to a particular ethnic group am I more deserving than some other. I have no role in chosing my parents. Why am I entitled to their weath after their passing?


You're not, unless they say you are, or leave no will on the matter, in which case its a safe assumption that they would have said that.

It has nothing to do with being born to anyone. A man who has no heirs and leaves everything to his best friend means the friend is entitled to it because that's what the man who earned it wanted.

If you give away all your wealth 5 minutes before you die, you wouldn't be arguing about the entitlement of anyone to it. Trying to say "all rights cease at the moment of death" is essenitally just splitting hairs in order to create a reason to tax.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Rifles, lots of them.

This gave me the wonderful mental image of Elmo's estate consisting of an armory sizeable enough to allow a handful of towns to successfully declare and defend their independence, left to his community.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Rifles, lots of them.

This gave me the wonderful mental image of Elmo's estate consisting of an armory sizeable enough to allow a handful of towns to successfully declare and defend their independence, left to his community.



I have both a new goal and life and a reason to contact my attorney.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:33 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Rifles, lots of them.

Arm the dead!? You fool! They already have superhuman strength!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:59 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Rifles, lots of them.

This gave me the wonderful mental image of Elmo's estate consisting of an armory sizeable enough to allow a handful of towns to successfully declare and defend their independence, left to his community.

I have both a new goal and life and a reason to contact my attorney.
I recommend a private security force equipped with Lenco Bearcats armed with a Dillon M134D Aero in the turret, so long as we're daydreaming :P Wackenhut uses those here in Oak Ridge and they're just plain formidable.

In lighter daydreaming, I wonder whether this whole issue can be circumvented by transferring ownership of assets from a person to a LLC - it may be that the tax implications for changing LLC ownership (from parents to progeny), instead of transferring an estate at death, are favorable. Even better, set yourself up a non-profit lol.


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