The Glade 4.0

can anyone suggest a few? Wow is just to easy and eq is the oppisite - there is no skill, just endless camping and hoping to win a dice roll

What do you consider well developed? Are you looking for something logistically challenging with good markets? Or something where the act of crafting itself is an interesting minigame instead of just hitting combine?

For the former, I can't recommend Pirates of the Burning Seas enough. For quite a while, Star Wars Galaxies held the title of most depth for crafting (with its resource discovery and recipe experimentation to result in variable stats for resulting items), though it was trapped in a terrible game and often required devoting as much time and attention to securing a market as you devoted to crafting. PotBS came along, though, and resoundingly stole that crown. PotBS doesn't have the variable stats that SWG offered, but it does nearly everything right to emulate a real economy. Lost cargo and "durability points" on ships when sunk creates meaningful cash sinks that penetrate all levels and varieties of play to keep inflation in check, and their per-port auction houses create regional economies that can allow savvy speculators and merchant-traders to buy low and sell high if they put in the time and research. The crafting system itself is rather unique, in that it revolves around utilizing limited per-account plots of land to generate (in the case of raw materials) or manufacture (in the case of processed goods) trade goods and eventually finished products. Ships, the most complex category of finished products, will require the resources and processing power of at least 4-5 accounts in order to cover all the necessary resources and intermediary steps in the production of a ship, and those 4-5 people's supply chain will not be efficient (i.e., the guy with the lumbermill will have his mill running 24/7, while the guy with the smithy will have a lot of idle time, or whatever), so in more sophisticated crafting guilds, it's more likely that a dozen players or more will be cooperating to create an efficient supply chain (or that those 4-5 guys will be selling/buying from the market to get productive use out of their idle time/supplement their bottlenecks). This depth and breadth to the crafting process ensures a healthy, competitive market for all types of crafting, with a strong market for crafted goods supported by strong markets for crafted consumable goods, slow but eventual sinks for most durable goods, and the fact that few usable items are simply dropped or offered as quest rewards. It's the most vibrant player economy I've ever been a part of, and the need to haul goods from their point of manufacture to their point of use (since each of the ports can support only certain types of resource production or, in a few cases like shipyards, types of manufacture) creates a job, as it were, for traders to consume their time (since all the processing and resource production is automated in real-time whether logged in or not, so long as you manage it on a roughly weekly basis).

For the latter, Vanguard or EverQuest II might be worth looking at. They both approach crafting as an encounter the way combat might be abstracted, with events and complications that you must react to and mitigate or accommodate.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

I find you saying this about SWG when recommending PotBS downright hilarious.

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Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick

I also loved PotBS's crafting system. I had issues with the other aspects of the game though.

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*Shrug* I'd still play it if I had the time to get invested in it. It's a hard game to dabble in, though, because to really get involved requires PvP. As such, yes, it does also come with all the problems inherent in PvP-centric games. PvE exclusive folks get bored and have to concern themselves with getting preyed upon as they visit ports in contention to do their PvE stuff, and the PvP guys have to put in the time to not only keep their skills up to PvP-successful levels, but to support the losses they incur in PvP and keep abreast of some of the intra-nation politics, too.

That said, port battles are the best "raiding" experience I ever had, and that's said from the perspective of the server underdog nation, before there were underdog mechanics in place (if they ever got around to putting effective ones in). The experience of sailing in formation with twenty-some-odd other ships and coordinating maneuvers in order to protect our weak sides was second to none in both its uniqueness and its status as a rewarding and exciting endeavor. The challenge was outstanding, too, in a way that only PvP gameplay can be. The other side was every bit as smart as us, playing by the same rules, and as well or better equipped, too.

I'm not here to tell you you're wrong to dislike the game. I do think you're wrong to call it a terrible one, though. It's certainly nowhere near the league of disappointment and suckiness as SWG. Flying Lab Studios did an amazing amount with very little in the way of resources and an incredibly niche audience. That they're still going, considering the niche-ness of their game's appeal speaks volumes to me. In many respects, it makes me sad that the game succeeds, as I'd love to see their talents applied fresh to a project that I was more likely to find the time and friends interested in playing.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

DragonRealms.

Single greatest crafting I've ever had in online play. I have only been disappointed, more disappointed, and utterly disappointed with every game's crafting system since.

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

The crafting system in LOTRO is pretty decent. I find it to be a good balance between depth and flexibility without being too cumbersome.

I'll be giving it a shot soon enough. Just created a rang...er.... "hunter" on Menoral... Meloram.... the M one.

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

Cool. I'm on the Riddermark server if you want to hook up.

I liked Vanguard's crafting system.

I really wish that game had taken off.

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Holy shitsnacks!

EQ2 has a really easy and robust crafting system. Don't let anybody here tell you otherwise. If they talk trash about it, they haven't played it in over 4 years.

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The Dude abides.

Hunters are far too archery focused to be real rangers...thought I'd warn you. But look me up if you need help with anything. I'm on Tarmegil, Champ of Meneldor (SHING-SHING!!!). I have a number of alts from levels 10-22 if you don't just want some auto-win assistance.

It is very, very similar to WoW's crafting system, though.

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Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick

To give you an idea of why I liked DragonRealms crafting system, and why no game has (in my personal opinion), or ever will, come close to the sense of accomplishment when creating an item, I will walk you through how to make an arrow. That's right, just a single arrow. Fortunately, you have very strong chances of recovering most, if not all, of your arrows. But they do wear out over time.

1. Decide which type of wood you'd like to make an arrow out of. Different woods make for stronger, harder-hitting arrows. But are also more difficult to work with.
2. Forage for that type of wood. You have a better chance foraging around in areas where the trees of that wood are more common.
3. Find a small branch.
4. With your knife, trim the bark off of it.
5. With your shaper tool, round it out so that it is smooth and balanced.
6. With your knife, knock the arrow several times.
7. With your glue (purchase-able), attach a fletching (also an item you acquire) to the arrow. Do this three times.
8. Affix the arrowhead, of which there are many to choose from.

At any time during this process, if you mess up then your arrow will be unbalanced and won't be as good as a perfect arrow. That isn't to say you can't use it, it just won't do as much damage or be as accurate as a regular arrow. Sometimes you may use too much glue, or your knocks aren't centered properly, or your arrowhead didn't go on straight, etc. It's also important to note that each step was not instantaneous. You couldn't just plow through several arrows within seconds. It took several minutes just to make one.

I could literally sit there for hours in the forest foraging for wood and making arrows and feel quite tranquil and zen. I don't think gamers of today would stand for 1/6 of that process though.

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

If it wasn't laggy, FFXIV's crafting system would be pretty enjoyable.

In that you have skill levels and combine mats to get a result, sure I'll agree.

I find there to be much more interweaving of various crafting skills, control over the quality of the products you make (buffs, additional mats to increase crit chances, etc.) and variations in skill levels (mastery of tiers).