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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:27 am 
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A blog, unfortunately

Normally I don't care to post from blogs, so take it with a grain of salt. That said, if the man's facts are accurate, and I have no reason to believe they aren't, this is a perfect example of why cutting defense will never solve your funding problems or fix your economy unless its defense, and defense alone, that you're spending large sums of money on.

I've underlined the 2 most critical summations for those for whom this is TL;DR. Suffice to say that the numebrs make clear that not only is the UK defense budget already quite modest in comparison to the rest of its budget, but cutting it entirely would still not solve a any problems created by ever-inflating social spending or bailouts. Indeed, the numbers indicate that absurd amounts are being spent on social programs; 62.3 billion pounds on Children, Schools, and Families alone, which would equate to about 130 billion dollars at current coversions. This in a country with a population 1/5 of ours. I find it difficult to believe that British schools and families are better of by a factor of 5 or more from this nonsense.

Second, the reference to the special relationship. I am not one to buy into the idea that America should have no allies, no foriegn commitment, and simply ignore the effects that has on our ability to trade. That said, if NATO countries, including our most significant ally, are going to continue to simply cut defense wholesale expecting America to pick up the tab, it may be time to re-think that commitment. While Britain undoubtedly will not entirely eliminate defense and will certainly hold onto its strategic deterrent, the fact is that simply providing some 64 additional Trident D5 missiles is not enough of a contribution.

If Britain does indeed expect to "always fight as part of a coalition" (one wonders what they thought they were doing in the Falklands), then it also ought to expect to provide meaningfully to that coalition. It need not be the majority partner, but "part of a coalition" is sounding suspiciously like "providing token support to an American effort that practically any other country also could, and for not better reason than to retain the right to ***** about how the Americans go about doing things."

Britain needs to be put on notice that if it expects to retain special privileges in relation to America, it needs to get serious about maintining defense, and if that means less social spending, then that's their problem. I'm not unmindful of British support in Afghanistan and Iraq but that does not entitle them to free defense from the U.S. in perpetuity.

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It’s been nearly two years since my last editorial, but I’ve decided to contribute my tuppence ha'penny worth to the rampant leaks and speculation surrounding the United Kingdom's Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), whose findings are expected to be published in late October.

The UK's defence budget for 2010/11 is about £36.9 billion in 2010/11 in Total Departmental Expenditure Limit, or £33.62bn in actually spendable 'near cash'. Whilst this is undoubtedly a very large sum of money, it is also the same amount as was spent on the recapitalisation of the banks Lloyds and RBS, and it is dwarfed by other departmental budgets such as Work and Pension (£135.7bn), Health (£109.4bn) and Children, Schools and Families (£63.2bn).

The stated objective of SDSR is to "provide a coherent approach to security across Government and ... ensure that we have the right balance of recourses to meet our commitments”, the reality is that that deep cuts in defence spending are being sought. I expect the context behind this is well known to most readers, but to summarise there three main problems. Firstly the UK public sector is running a large budget deficit and the new Conservative-LDP coalition government is seeking real savings of at least 10%, and is targeting 20%, from all Departments except Health. Secondly, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has been significantly under funded for a decade and faces an unfunded spending shortfall over the next ten years of approximately £37bn, over £20bn of which is taken up by the equipment and support programme alone (i.e. equipment the MoD has committed to buying but doesn’t have the money to pay for). And finally, the Treasury is pressing hard - and apparently successfully - for the £15-20bn Trident missile replacement programme to be funded from within the MoD’s remaining budget.

In the worse case, the cumulative effect of meeting these three demands will be a cut in UK defence spending of a third compared to current plans – which because of untouchable commitments such as pensions this probably equates to disbanding the Royal Navy (other than nuclear deterrent) and all of the "fast jet" part of the Royal Air Force. No wonder that American sources are suggesting that cuts of this magnitude will threaten the special relationship.

A number of interesting decisions already seem to have been made that may affect the outcome of SDSR:
1. An assumption that the UK will always operate as part of a coalition or an alliance (Green Paper, February 2010)
2. The “2020 option”, an assumption that the UK armed forces should be structured to support UK foreign policy goals at the end of the decade - this appears to be dangerously close to the infamous 10-year rule which lasted until 1932.
3. The assumption that civilians and civil servants cost as little as half of that of uniformed personnel performing the same role, and thus the greatest savings can be achieved by preferring cuts in the numbers of the later over the former. Whilst there are opportunities to utilize unformed personnel more effectively in front-line roles, the overall danger of a significantly worsened teeth-tail ratio is self evident.
One positive about SDSR is that it is a rare opportunity (arguably the first since 1998) for the Royal Navy to develop and sell a vision of its future that might be worth more than paper it’s printed on (e.g. Future Navy Vision, 2006). The RN has suffered grievously from ad-hoc cuts since 2003, with warships being paid off at short notice to achieve trivial immediate savings, and the construction of new ships either cancelled or repeatedly deferred. Given that the Royal Navy will be cut, the rest of this editorial speculates where these cuts might fall.

The elephant in the room is the sacrosanct 'Successor' (Vanguard-class replacement) project. There seems little doubt that at least three and probably four of these new ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) will be built; the question is when and how they will be paid for. If the cost has to be met from the maritime share of the defence equipment and support budget, then the RN probably cannot afford to order anything else between now and late next decade given that its current (pre-cuts) planned shipbuilding budget for the next 10 years is about £14bn, and about £11bn of that is already on order.

There is also a direct link between Successor and the number of Astute-class nuclear attack submarines (SSNs) that will be built. Six of the later are least partially on order, with seven planned, but the MoD has been looking very hard at the impact of cancelling the final boat. The cancellation won’t save any money on construction costs as the underutilized facilities and staff will still have to be paid for in order to maintain the industrial capability to build Successor, but the running cost of a SSN (perhaps £40m per annum over a 25 year service period, but I can't find good recent numbers) will then be saved. On balance it seems likely that seven Astute's will be built as the MoD will probably slip the construction of the first Successor - the currently planned In-Service Date (ISD) is 2025 - by a few years in order to better fit in with American plans for an Ohio-class replacement, SSBN(X) (ISD 2029), with which it will share a common missile compartment design. To fill the resulting gap it will be necessary to build the seventh Astute as the construction rate for the class can’t be slowed any further (about one submarine every two years) without key staff leaving and skills atrophying between each submarine. The seventh Astute submarine will also add disproportionably to operational capacity as the RN's SSN force has to spend a lot of effort protecting the Vanguard class SSBN's. The new schedule will also allow the ending of Successor construction to dovetail with an Astute replacement - the first of class to enter service about 2035

The Secretary of State for Defence, Liam Fox made a speech on 13 August 2010 in which he validly described the need for armed forces with a “flexible, adaptable posture [that] will maintain the ability to safeguard international peace and security, to deter and contain those who threaten the UK and its interests, and where necessary to intervene on multiple fronts … capable of maritime-enabled power projection, the capacity to control air-space to guarantee freedom of manoeuvre and the ability to deploy land power with the logistical strength to sustain it”.

It’s impossible to imagine a better fit to the Secretary of State’s vision than the Royal Navy’s Carrier Strike and Amphibious Task Groups. But cancellation of the new Queen Elizabeth-class future aircraft carriers (CVF) has for a decade been offered as the 'silver bullet' solution to the MoD’s funding crisis, and it is yet again being promoted with amazing success (at least in terms of column inches) by a segment of the media and defence establishment who seem to have a pathological hatred of any large grey warships that are able to carry aircraft. In practice – with over £1.2 billion in contracts already placed and the UK shipbuilding industry now totally dependent on the project - construction of the new carriers has almost certainly passed the point at which cancellation is viable under any rational criteria, however significant changes to the CVF programme are still quite possible. The most obvious problem is finding aircraft and helicopters to form air groups for the new carriers. The UK has theoretically committed to buying up 138 of the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) to meet its Joint Combat Aircraft (JCA) requirement; indeed it has already ordered three of the Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) JSF variant (designated F-35B). However there seems to be little chance that more than 50 JCA's (costing nearly £100 million each) will be affordable. One of the surprises of SDSR might be a decision to abandon the F-35B version for the F-35C which can carry a higher payload over a longer range. The F-35C is also slightly cheaper, but this will be negated by the cost of fitting at least one of the new carriers with two catapults and arresting gear. Adoption of the F-35C will avoid the dangerous looking 'rolling landing' technique that the UK has been studying for the F-35B in order to overcome its payload 'bring back' weight restrictions. Another potential advantage with the F-35C is that the Royal Navy would be able to cross deck aircraft with United States and French Navy aircraft carriers for the first time since 1978.

If SDSR did decide to go for the F-35C over the F-35B, it’s the second CVF - HMS Prince of Wales - that would be adopted to the operate the aircraft. HMS Queen Elizabeth will be completed largely as planned, including a bow ski-jump. She would initially operate Harrier's (assuming that they stay in service as currently planned until 2019). Thereafter she would operate as a super-sized helicopter carrier (LPH), effectively replacing HMS Ocean, with the possibility that funding priorities might eventually permit her to be upgraded to the same standard as Prince of Wales.

The biggest loser under SDSR is undoubtedly going to be the RN’s amphibious forces. If there is one significant national military capability that the UK is set to formally abandon in SDSR, it is opposed force projection from the sea. In terms of amphibious shipping, the last seven years has been a “golden age”, with a level of sea lift (full combat brigade) and capability unmatched since the Second World War. Unfortunately this period has also coincided with the demise of the Sea Harrier FA.2 fighter (i.e. no carrier based air cover), the diversion of 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines to operations in Iraq and Afghanistan (i.e. no troops), and the similar focus of the Joint Helicopter Command on Iraq and Afghanistan (i.e. no helicopters). In general the Amphibious Task Group has been badly underutilized, with large scale exercises few and far between.

It seems very likely that the Corps of the Royal Marines will be absorbed in to the British Army and that the Largs Bay-class auxiliary landing ships will be sold. It also seems probable that HMS Albion and Bulwark will start to alternate in active service, with the emphasis on the use of their C4I command and control facilities, rather than their amphibious capabilities. HMS Ocean will probably last to about 2018 (although she is not aging well), whilst the Point-class Ro-Ro’s will continue to provide a useful commercially run contracted sea lift service for many years yet.

In terms of the RN’s escort force, the six Daring-class Type 45’s destroyers (survivors of the twelve once planned) are now finally entering service and the remaining five Type 42 destroyers can be expected to disappear in double quick time, certainly none will be left by 2013 at the latest.

Despite hopes to the contrary, it is also very likely that the four Type 22 Batch 3 frigates will soon decommission without replacement. These ships have high running costs - totalling over £130m a year - because of their large crews (over 250) and increasing age (20+). A rapid withdraw from RN service and their sale for further service with foreign navies whilst they still have some resale value seems a very likely fate in SDSR.

The big question in relation to escorts is the replacement of the thirteen remaining Type 23 frigates – currently due to pay-off from 2023. The new Type 26 frigate (formerly referred to as the Future Surface Combatant) is now in the Assessment Phase, with BAE Systems Surface Ship Solutions being awarded in March 2010 a four-year, £127 million contract to design the ship. It’s hoped that the first of class will enter service in 2021, and ten units are reportedly planned. However the Type 26 will be a relatively large (6,850 tonnes) and expensive design (about £500 million each), and the words 'up to' seem all too likely to soon appear before 'ten units', followed by 'fitted for but not with harpoon, tomahawk, [etc]'. The usual hopes are already being expressed that the Type 26 design will be a major export success (e.g. Brazil is being mentioned), but these seem optimistic given its cost and high end anti-submarine warfare focus - an unaffordable luxury for all but handful of navies. Indeed, I have severe concerns as to the wisdom of a path that seems likely to eventually deliver five or six vessels at a date (the 2010's) when upgraded Type 23’s should still be potent adversaries to submarines, rather than building a larger number (ten?) of less sophisticated and lower cost general purpose that will keep escort force numbers above twenty and thus allow at least two or three units to be deployed around the world on tasks such maritime interdiction, anti-piracy and the protection of national interests.

The reluctance of the Royal Navy to buy 'second class' warships seems to set to continue to point where it is that or nothing. Similarly, the reluctance to 'buy American' or (even worse) 'European' off-the- shelf solutions will have to change - the UK and the RN can simply no longer afford to develop expensive and sophisticated naval weapon systems, radars, sonar's, command systems and other electronics that will then be manufactured and deployed in only tiny numbers.

The Royal Navy has already lost ownership of its fixed wing jet aircraft, and sadly its helicopter force is not in a much happier state. The Sea King HC.4 naval air squadrons of Joint Helicopter Command are set to be disbanded over the next 8 years. The mix of Merlin and Lynx (soon to be replaced by the ridiculously expensive Lynx Wildcat) helicopters perhaps made sense in the 1980's, but now seems ludicrous when even the USN can make do with one type (the SH60 Seahawk). As for the Sea King ASaC.7, the replacement Maritime Airborne Surveillance and Control (MASC) project has been moribund for years and anything that finally emerges will almost certainly be a RAF or 'joint' asset rather than RN.

In relation to mine countermeasures, the bottom line is that Royal Navy needs a deployable squadron of three or four vessels; this requires an overall strength of about seven or eight compared to the current sixteen. A decision needs to be quickly made between the Hunt class (more versatile) and the Sandown class (younger) and the other class should be disposed of.

For other minor warships a ruthless approach will again have to be taken if meaningful economies are to be achieved. For example the MoD can't afford the proposed replacement of HMS Endurance unless additional funding is supported by the Foreign Office; minor vessels such as the Archer-class will have to be eliminated or drastically reduced in number; economic zone and off shore protection tasking will have to be reviewed (yet again), and any hydrographical surveys beyond purely military needs must be funded commercially or by other government departments.

The Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) Service has effectively been destroyed by the overly ambitious and ultimately unaffordable £2bn Military Afloat Reach and Sustainability (MARS) programme - the chance of ideas such as the Joint Sea-Based Logistics ship ever seeing the light of day is now zero. Even the much lower cost and high priority MARS spin-off for new Fleet Tankers failed to gain funding approval last year. Sadly, it's now time to accept financial realities and disband the RFA. For single warship deployments, having an RFA vessel in company is economic madness - warships such as the Type 45 destroyers have very considerable endurance and can readily use allied replenishment vessels (usually American) and friendly ports when necessary. Also, RFA vessels are now regularly used as a poor mans frigate on the Atlantic Patrol Tasks North and South, when a genuine 'second rate' frigate with lean crewing would make far more sense. Of the existing RFA fleet, Fort Victoria and Fort George should be commissioned into the Royal Navy (armed and upgraded for operation with the Carrier Strike Task Group), whilst the two Wave-class tankers and possibly Argus and Diligence should be transferred to a commercial operator with sponsored reservist crews. If necessary an additional tanker could be chartered and economically fitted to support exercise duties around the UK out of Portsmouth, and arrangements entered in to with other EU navies to share auxiliary assets (certainly this is far more realistic than proposals such as sharing aircraft carriers!).

In other areas, the real cost effectiveness and utility of University Royal Naval Units and Royal Naval Reserve (at least in their current form) is very questionable and they should be shut down. In some instance, e.g. medics, a merger with nearby Territorial Army and RAF Reserve units might be appropriate.

A long hard look needs to be taken as to naval bases. Realistically, the reduced Royal Navy needs only two bases - Portsmouth for surface ships and Faslane for submarines. The location of refits - including nuclear submarines - should then be a matter for commercial competition.

Finally, the size of the Royal Navy will inevitably have to decline, excluding Royal Marines there are currently about 31,500 regular personnel, this seems inevitably heading downwards to perhaps 27,000.

In conclusion, I reluctantly look forward to publication of SDSR to see to what extent my pessimistic projections are realised, disappointed, or exceeded.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:39 am 
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The US could maintain adequate DEFENSE for $150bn, after we withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:54 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The US could maintain adequate DEFENSE for $150bn, after we withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq.


No, we could not.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:10 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The US could maintain adequate DEFENSE for $150bn, after we withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq.


No, we could not.


For that amount of money, we could maintain a smaller Navy, that remains sufficiently large to prevent invasion. We could maintain a trimmed down nuclear program.

We do not need a standing army for adequate defense.


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Arathain:

That is kind of my question as well. Is there any country out there right now who has the assets, personnell and logistical capability to directly threaten the US with invasion?

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Hopwin wrote:
Arathain:

That is kind of my question as well. Is there any country out there right now who has the assets, personnell and logistical capability to directly threaten the US with invasion?


Just Mexico and Canada. But I don't think they'd make it too far.

With an adequate Navy and nuclear programme, we could maintain an adequate defense of our borders.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The US could maintain adequate DEFENSE for $150bn, after we withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq.


No, we could not.


For that amount of money, we could maintain a smaller Navy, that remains sufficiently large to prevent invasion. We could maintain a trimmed down nuclear program.

We do not need a standing army for adequate defense.


Then we wouldn't be adequately defending ourselves. Merely preventing invasion is not "defense". The country is more than just its territorial integrity. We require favorable economic conditions, trade, and open sea lanes.

As for our nuclear deterrent, it's already trimmed down ridiculously far; 10% or less of 1988 levels.

There's also the matter of Alaska, Hawaii, Guam, and various other non-contiguous land to defend.

There's room for defense cuts, mainly by ending the current wars and associated spending, and eliminating waste, but $150 billion a year would basically be surrendering our economic interests to the whims of the rest of the world.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Then we wouldn't be adequately defending ourselves. Merely preventing invasion is not "defense". The country is more than just its territorial integrity. We require favorable economic conditions, trade, and open sea lanes.



Psst. Enforcing favorable economic conditions around the world is not defense. It's aggressive imperialism.

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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Arathain:

That is kind of my question as well. Is there any country out there right now who has the assets, personnell and logistical capability to directly threaten the US with invasion?


Just Mexico and Canada. But I don't think they'd make it too far.

With an adequate Navy and nuclear programme, we could maintain an adequate defense of our borders.


I discussed, at extreme length, what it would take for China to invade this country with our current force structure. Go down to some piddly-ass navy and it becomes a lot more feasible for them, especially if they limit it to just pacific islands and Alaska.

No one bothers building the assets to challange us right now because it isn't feasible; they're already playing catchup and we can always increase our own capabilities to match. If we were to pare down our capabilities in the absurd notion that land-based invasion is the only thing we need to worry about then it suddenly becomes a lot more feasible to build enough capabilities to attack us, especially in non-contiguous areas.

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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Then we wouldn't be adequately defending ourselves. Merely preventing invasion is not "defense". The country is more than just its territorial integrity. We require favorable economic conditions, trade, and open sea lanes.


Psst. Enforcing favorable economic conditions around the world is not defense. It's aggressive imperialism.


It's no such thing. No one said anything about enforcing anything. Favorable economic conditions does not mean you need to go around forcing everyone to cut you a sweet deal; it means making sure that people can't use your need for resources and trade as a weapon to attack your economy.

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by favorable conditions. Favorable conditions aren't "good for us and screw everyone else". Favorable conditions are "stable and equitable trade where no one is being backed into a corner because of arrangements they can't do anything about." That does happen to some countries, but there's no reason we should elt it happen to ours.

And oh by the way... if it happens to us, it happens to you to. Canada can't protect itself without the U.S. You have too much territory and too few people to be able to afford to protect your economic interests alone. Fortunately for you guys, invasion is pretty unlikely because of your location but that doesn't do you a whole lot of good if all that oil you have has to be exported at extortionately low prices because otherwise it doesn't get exported at all.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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I really should point out that the argument of, "cutting defense spending doesn't work, because it will be used as an excuse to inflate social programs" is about as BS as the argument of, "cutting social programs doesn't work, because it will be used as an excuse to inflate military spending."


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Xequecal wrote:
I really should point out that the argument of, "cutting defense spending doesn't work, because it will be used as an excuse to inflate social programs" is about as BS as the argument of, "cutting social programs doesn't work, because it will be used as an excuse to inflate military spending."


Except that it is not, because they don't work the same way politically. There is always some sob story that can be used to claim a need for ever more social spending, always some "wrong" to be "righted".

The same isn't true for defense. You can look at what is happening, what is likely to happen, what might happen, and how serious the consequences are and purchase based on what you can afford to counter. The only incentive to heavier spending is from people whose jobs depend on it and that's easily countered by the "enriching contractors and busnessmen" argument.

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DE, maintaining an adequate Navy would prevent China from invading even an island in the Pacific, effectively.

I disagree that threat of force for trade is necessary for defense. Security for overseas investments is a different animal, which may require some funding. Make it $175 billion.


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In this hypothetical, the Navy would need to absorb a significant portion of the Air Forces capabilities, or you would want to maintain the Air Force as well.


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Xequecal wrote:
I really should point out that the argument of, "cutting defense spending doesn't work, because it will be used as an excuse to inflate social programs" is about as BS as the argument of, "cutting social programs doesn't work, because it will be used as an excuse to inflate military spending."

I am quite certain I have heard many of the more liberal members of the government make the exact claims that funds to provide for increased, or new, social services can be found by cutting back on the Defense budget and shifting budgets there. I have heard other politicians claim that the defense budget can't/shouldn't be cut as a deficit reduction plan, but I don't believe I have ever heard the argument that our military needs more money, so raid the social programs.


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Maybe not the military directly, but meeting the obsessive-compulsive border security standards of the tea partiers would probably require hundreds of billions of dollars.


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Ladas wrote:
In this hypothetical, the Navy would need to absorb a significant portion of the Air Forces capabilities, or you would want to maintain the Air Force as well.



Yes, or amend Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution to include a standing Air Force as well as a standing Navy. Either solution works.

We are currently running on the standard of being able to support two separate wars at once and have been for a long long time.

We don't need to do this. Nuclear deterrant for nation states, a navy and airforce for our borders and waters, and an active Marque program for non nation state actors.

We would be fine.

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We would need to maintain the option of a draft, if ever necessary.


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Xequecal wrote:
Maybe not the military directly, but meeting the obsessive-compulsive border security standards of the tea partiers would probably require hundreds of billions of dollars.

Which still doesn't support the suggestion you made considering the rhetoric if the liberal politicians. What you claimed as "BS" is exactly what many have said is exactly what needs to be done in regards to decreasing the military budget.

Do you honestly believe that the liberal politicians would use the cost savings from defense budget cuts to either reduce the deficit or lower taxes, since federal income needs are reduced, or find more innovated ways to spend the money on new programs, expanding upon the current problems for which the cuts were made?

Do you believe that the fiscal conservatives would take the cost savings from social programs and spend that money on defense?


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Schools probably includes university education, which I understand it doesn't in the states. The bailout for the banks is kind of missing the point, as a one off, thats actually been profitable in some cases already, vs an ongoing spend every year.


But, yeah, we're broke.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:57 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
DE, maintaining an adequate Navy would prevent China from invading even an island in the Pacific, effectively.


Oh really? What happens when they build their own adequate Navy? Then we build even more, and very quickly that $150 billion is surpassed, to say nothing of the need to maintain an Air Force and a nuclear deterrent plus maritime security requirements elsewhere.

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I disagree that threat of force for trade is necessary for defense. Security for overseas investments is a different animal, which may require some funding. Make it $175 billion.


Not even close to enough. You can disagree if you like, but I disagree with your disagreement.

I think you'd also find other countries gaining more leverage over our internal politics with less defense. Take that 2nd Ammendment that we all like that drives the Euro-wankers nuts. If other countries can exert pressure on us economically because we lack the military power to render that infeasible, there could start being a lot more domestic pressure to bring our gun laws more in line with Europe's bullshit.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
In this hypothetical, the Navy would need to absorb a significant portion of the Air Forces capabilities, or you would want to maintain the Air Force as well.


That could actually result in savings in terms of reducing duplication at the higher levels, but it would also necessarily make land-oriented air capabilities play second-fiddle to the maritime orientation of the Navy. In particular, we'd see excessive focus on SSBN/SLBM deterrent, and probably the total demise of heavy bombers and ICBMs. Getting rid of ICBMs is the way to go anyhow, but we need fewer SSBNs/SLBMs in comparison to the number of heavy bombers in the future. Ideally we'll be seeing a hypersonic bomber between 2035 and 2040 but.. I'm not optomistic.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:39 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
DE, maintaining an adequate Navy would prevent China from invading even an island in the Pacific, effectively.


Oh really? What happens when they build their own adequate Navy? Then we build even more, and very quickly that $150 billion is surpassed, to say nothing of the need to maintain an Air Force and a nuclear deterrent plus maritime security requirements elsewhere.


If and when that happens we can make adjustments. I didn't say 150b is adequate forever.

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I disagree that threat of force for trade is necessary for defense. Security for overseas investments is a different animal, which may require some funding. Make it $175 billion.


Not even close to enough. You can disagree if you like, but I disagree with your disagreement.

I think you'd also find other countries gaining more leverage over our internal politics with less defense. Take that 2nd Ammendment that we all like that drives the Euro-wankers nuts. If other countries can exert pressure on us economically because we lack the military power to render that infeasible, there could start being a lot more domestic pressure to bring our gun laws more in line with Europe's bullshit.


That's not defense, dude, that's influence. They could try to put domestic pressure on us, they may not. If they do, that's an internal decision that must be made. I don't think we need to maintain a huge military to prevent Europe from trying to get us to outlaw our guns. Not sure why they would care, anyway. In fact, if we did not have a standing military, the last thing we would want to do is remove private weapons.

I can't justify spending hundreds of billions of dollars over "what if" scenarios who's down side is "internal pressure".


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:38 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
DE, maintaining an adequate Navy would prevent China from invading even an island in the Pacific, effectively.


Oh really? What happens when they build their own adequate Navy? Then we build even more, and very quickly that $150 billion is surpassed, to say nothing of the need to maintain an Air Force and a nuclear deterrent plus maritime security requirements elsewhere.


If and when that happens we can make adjustments. I didn't say 150b is adequate forever.


You have to project defense requirements well into the future, and a large part of that is maintaining the industrial base you need. Notice me talking about bombers 30 years into the future? I'm sure that people who do this for a living are projecting twice as far.

Moreover, I don't think you realize just how much Navy is required to have an adequate Navy to defend Hawaii and Alaska plus securing sea lanes elsewhere. To maintain an aircraft carrier on station in one place requires having 3-6 carriers total, depending on where that place is, and for a lot of things you really need more than one carrier.

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That's not defense, dude, that's influence. They could try to put domestic pressure on us, they may not. If they do, that's an internal decision that must be made. I don't think we need to maintain a huge military to prevent Europe from trying to get us to outlaw our guns. Not sure why they would care, anyway. In fact, if we did not have a standing military, the last thing we would want to do is remove private weapons.


We're not talking about maintaining a huge military. We don't have a huge military now, contrary to what people like to pretend by attempting to measure expendiatures against other countries without considering physical size, population, or the prevailing economic conditions or defense philosophy regarding preservation of lives and equipment during combat. Maybe you've missed my thread on Joint Forces Command where I talked about how we could have more defense for less money if we spent smarter.

In point of fact, we already have received a fair amount of pressure over gun laws and alarm has been expressed here on this board over judges talking about bringing us in line with other nations' laws, of which gun laws would be a prime choice. Part of the reason Europe doesn't exert more economic pressure on us over domestic issues is that they A) depend on us for defense and B) can't possibly expect to exert coercive pressure on us because we can exert more in return.

There's nothing wrong with being in a defensive alliance with NATO so long as they make a reasonable contribution, but that contribution has been declining steadily. Afghanistan illustrates this perfectly with incompetant, overweight European troops unable to perform their missions if they aren't also restricted by political fear that they might kill someone. Britain (and Canada) has stood out above the others but they are looking at going down this road.

That means we should think about whether the NATO arrangement is really equitable. If it isn't, we can pull 4 brigades out of Europe and reduce the active Army by that amount. Personally I'd like to see a total Army of about 100 Brigade Combat Teams plus associated other forces, but half that would be National Guard and another 12 Brigades or so would be Army Reserves, leaving us with 38 BCTs; larger than in 2001, but still a smaller active force that we have now.

However, if we shrink our other forces, especially our Navy, Air Force and nuclear deterrent (which has already been cut to dangerously low levels) and Europe is suddenly forced to increase its forces the balance shifts and the ability to apply coercive economic force suddenly becomes far more likely based on economic relationships.

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I can't justify spending hundreds of billions of dollars over "what if" scenarios who's down side is "internal pressure".


And you can justify not spending anything just by calling any scenario a "what if" without regard to actual probability. We already recieve international pressure over who we elect, our gun laws, and other domestic matters. No one is talking about maintaining some enormous defense against any conceivable threat, but defense does goes far beyond simply keeping Chinese Marines out of San Francisco. Influence is defense.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:26 pm 
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Your goals are not defense, DE, and that's fine. Mine are not solely defense either.

However, we CAN defend our borders adequately, for somewhere in the neighborhood of, and maybe less, than 200 billion. I don't think the 150 billion is a stretch. No, it wouldn't be a strong military, but it would be adequate to achieve that goal.

Securing shipping lanes and producing bombers and protecting overseas investments via threat of force is not defense of borders. If you want to do these things, that's all well and good, but perhaps Britain does not. They can defend themselves with the budget posted.


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