The Glade 4.0

Aizle:

There's nothing hard to fathom about your statements, as they're quite simply bullshit. For starters, you've demonstrated a complete unwillingness to discuss or engage the specifics of the legislation you think can be implemented to achieve the end you desire. Indeed, to take the position you are taking, you would first have to know what the legislation in question contains. Instead, you simply repeat that you think it can be made to work, but that distinguishes it in no way from other regulatory tax code (which incidentally, the legislation happens to be).

So, please, tell me "why" you think it's workable when you've yet to demonstrate any understanding of what the bill actually does.

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He's stated pretty clearly, in my view, that it doesn't particularly matter to him what the bill actually does, right now. It's "workable" because when they find "unworkable problems" they can be fixed as it is implemented. He's not saying it's workable as it stands, he's saying it will be modified to be workable over time.

As an metaphor, the bill is a pile of play-doh. You want a play-doh castle. It's a blob. You'll keep working that blob until you make your castle. But, you have to have a pile of play-doh to start with.

If I understand his position correctly.

It's certainly a pile of something.

You cannot build a house starting with the shingles. You start with the foundation, then the framework, etc. You cannot simply will univeral health care into existence by decree. A solid foundation needs to be there first.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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Health-care is a pretty important thing to be trusted to various unknowns and unworkabilities, in the hopes that it doesn't cause irreparable damage to real peoples lives until it can be fixed and retooled and finally said to be "working as intended." Just sayin...

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Which is fine, when you want to build a play-doh castle.

But a blob of play-doh, no matter how big or how much "working" you do with it, is not a workable solution to build a bridge.

And that's what Khross and DFK! are suggesting is the case. We've got a blob of play-doh as our starting point for a bridge, and it's largely because the bridge-building project was designed and drafted by people like Aizle, who don't really know anything about building a bridge.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

And I don't disagree with that. But Aizle did answer the question.

This, and...




...this, I agree with.

However, this:



Not so much, given that, continuing the metaphor, Aizle is basically saying play-doh can get turned into a foundation without describing the magical process that makes it into the foundation.



@Talya:

I've never said that universal health care is "wrong," or anything similar. I've said it doesn't have a foundation in law or "general" morality in the United States; that comparing health systems between countries is stupid; and that the empirical data does not favor your opinion of the Canadian system. Beyond that, I agree in large part with what you wrote.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

As long as there is no regard for the opinion of the majority of those paying the bills, health care legislation is undoubtedly "workable".

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In time, this too shall pass.

Thank you. As I have previously expressed, this word does not see nearly enough use on this side of the Atlantic Ocean.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

And there's no way, were I american, that I would support a universal health care initiative until after the country had gotten it's financial situation in order. Trying to set one up right now in this financial turmoil is the height of irresponsibility.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

This is close.

I actually think that the stated goals for the bill are pretty sound goals to have. So the "foundation" is there from my perspective. Now, the realities of how those need to be implemented and if the current legislation will be successful in attaining those goals is yet to be determined. However, I believe that over time any changes that need to be made to achieve those goals can and will be made.

So if you want to go the metaphor route, it's more like you've bought a fixer up house, that is mostly what you'd want it to be, but there might be a couple of repairs here and there that you need to make to get it to what you'd really like it to be.

Except the specifics of the bill contradict this claim, and your basic premise is still flawed. Healthcare isn't a right, because to make it so obligates the government to mandate the actions of others.

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The "goals for the bill" aren't a foundation -- a foundation would be a solid economic plan to do this in a way that minimizes impact to the patient and lowers the current costs for all citizens. The goals for the bill are more like a vague plan to buy a property and build a house on it than they are a foundation.

You keep thinking in this idea that you can implement something vague and make it work. You cannot make a plan this ambitious work simply by making it up as you go along. You need specific, concrete, tested and workable plans, right down to the tiny details, right from the beginning. This bill is trying to build a house without an architectural plan (in addition to the lack of foundation.)

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Sure, you can make it up as you go along. With enough money and an unhealthy distain for those supplying that money, all things are possible.

It's only difficult/impossible if you want to be fair and reasonable.

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In time, this too shall pass.

Oh, well then. Everything's fine. :p

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

You all are of course entitled to your opinions. I don't believe that the situation is anywhere as dire as you all are predicting. And it's also been plainly obvious from the months both before and after the bills passage that my comments aren't going to change anyone's opinions here.

viewtopic.php?p=97745#p97745

How about following your own advice and agree to discuss and exchange ideas about the facts, instead of simply providing us with more "soundbites" and "broad picture" assumptions that may or may not have anything to do with reality.

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So in other words its all jsut your personal opinions. Whether or not you change anyone's mind you should at least be able to articulate your reasons. You sure as hell won't change anyone's mind with nothing more than what you believe.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Frankly I'm not interested in the amount of effort that would require, only to have everyone here jump all over me for "clearly not understanding the realities of the situation".

So it's worth the effort to spend a few pages telling us it isn't worth the effort?

Whatever floats your boat dude.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Sounds like they lacked a project manager.

Aizle. Whats the point of dumping your positions in a thread and then not backing them up at all and in fact being slightly offended when asked to do so?

Oh right, intentions determine consequences. I keep forgetting that liberal creed.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

If they are stated as opinions and he states he doesn't want to go through the effort of providing backup for them, then take them as they are - opinions. He's said clearly he doesn't expect to change any minds, so what's the problem? Say you disagree and move on.

No point in getting all butt-hurt that he didn't back up his opinion.

No one is butt-hurt that he won't back them up. People are astounded that when asked to back them up, he won't, but it is still worth the effort to him to go through over a page of telling people that he won't.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Word.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore