The Glade 4.0

I'm curious to know how much time is spent (prior to the firefighters being dispatched) checking to make sure someone's dues are paid.

I'm also love to see what the fallout would be if someone had paid his dues but the system incorrectly flagged him for nonpayment, and the firefighters were instructed to let the house burn.

Additionally, it amuses me to see people claim that it's perfectly moral for the fire department to refuse emergency aid while looking down on others and having such an unflattering view of human nature (that people would suddenly begin refusing payment en masse).

I'm not saying the guy was right for not paying. Quite the opposite: I strongly feel he should have paid his share. And I don't blame the firefighters...to my understanding, they are but pawns who react solely to those the whims of those in charge. But this idea of only granting emergency aid to those who pay is absolutely detestable to me.

It would be more accurate to say the disconnect comes from the lack of common understanding of what constitutes and emergency.

I don't consider an individual's loss of property due to their own decisions to be an emergency to anyone other than the person that made the bad decisions.

I don't consider this an emergency any more than I consider it an emergency that someone lost the mortgage payment at the horse track.

Areas I have seen, you get a sticker or some other marker designation that you have paid your feeds that is placed on your property, so that the FD will respond to any call, but only attempt to save the property if the stickers are there (no different than the tax stickers placed on license plates). They don't check some database prior to dispatch sending the response trucks as you seem to imply.


Thankfully, we need look no further than this case for an example... of if you want a larger sample, look no further than MA.

Human decency? You are really going to say if someone watches your pictures burn they are terrible human beings? Does that mean you are going to pay my mortgage or are you an indecent person?

Essentially you want me and the rest of society to pay to put out your fires? Have some personal responsibility.

_________________

I'd like to make the addendum that the rest of society already pays to put out other's fires. Most people never experience a fire, so they don't use what they pay. The few who have have received far more from the money paid than they will ever put back in. But that's not the point, those people all contributed, all participated in a social contract stating they would look out for each other and help out.

This man voluntarily opted out of that contract. He chose not to help the rest of society with their fires, and explicitly stated society shall not help him, either.

That is, until he had a fire.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Evidently there's simply a list that they consult since the man in question refers to "not being on the list." As for "flagging" him incorrectly, I don't think there's any system, or flag. It's a list of people who paid. If he had paid and they said he hadn't his response would probably have indicated that on the 911 call.

If he'd paid but didn't get the service, the fault would be on the FD. I don't see how that's an issue.



How exactly this is amusing is beyond me. The accurcy of that view of human nature is what inspired the concept of the tragedy of the commons in the first place. The firefighters refusing emergency aid is a result of that human nature.



You're entitled to your opinion, but quite frankly there's not a whole lot of reason to detest it. If the county simply levied a tax and then paid the city for fire coverage it would never come up. Since the inhabitants of the county won't vote themselves a govenment tht will do that, the problem is one of their own creation.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Yes, actually, I am going to say that. If willingness to watch someone's life go up in smoke because they did not pay a $75 fee does not show a lack of compassion for the individual, I don't know what would. Maybe, because they did not literally spit in his face, too, that makes it ok with you?

People make mistakes. People do dumb things. The Cranicks did, and they should have to pay for them. But after the fact, via fines or assessments. Not by watching their things (some of which are likely irreplaceable) go up in smoke while the people who should be putting out the fire do nothing to help.

What's next? 20 years in prison for jaywalking?

The simple fact is, Farther, if they went ahead and put this mans fire out, the next person wouldn't have a fire department available when he had a fire, even if hadn't opted out of the fee, because the fire department would be insolvent because nobody is willing to pay for it anymore.

All these moral arguments ignore basic economics. "Feeling right" and "doing good" can't pay the bills. What's moral about helping one man save his home when in so doing, you've just cost everyone else who ever has a fire in that area their own homes (and possibly lives?) If you want to argue that they all should have been forced to pay the $75, then feel free to do so. But saying they should provide a service that the person explicitly chose not to pay for is ignoring common sense.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

This is as absurd as my 20 years for jaywalking comment was. Your argument is that the city of South Fulton is going to disband it's fire department because people outside the city of South Fulton aren't paying $75 a year? I am not arguing that he should get services for free. He should pay. But in this case, after the fire is out. He should pay a damned sight more than $75, for that matter. In fact, he offered to do so, and they still refused.

In an emergency situation, an ambulance will come and take you to get help, then bill you later. Take care of the emergency first, then deal with what comes next. Simple human decency demands it.

And then, the next guy will simply do the same thing, not pay, assuming he can pay afterwards and even if it's a lot more than $75, overall revenues will go down.

No, the City of South Fulton will not disband their fire department, but they damn well might (and really should) stop serving the county areas they didn't serve until 1990.

Evidently you are simply not reading the thread and just repeating the same arguments over and over to avoid dealing with points you don't like.

The only thing you're correct about is the absurdity of your 20 years for jaywalking comment. Yes, it's absurd that you could say something so totally irrelevant.



No, human decency does not demand it. Your personal feelings do not dictate what is "human decency". Its been explained clearly why an ambulance is not the same thing; ambulances deal with actual danger to people's life and health, not property. You keep trying to slip this bullshit example in with things like "but what about the danger from him fighting the fire with the hose?" and when that's addressed, you simply pretend it wasn't and go right back to the example as if no one had said anything.

Gee, where have we seen that before?

Either explain why a man's property - which is insured - constitutes an emergency in the same way danger to life and limb does to anyone but the owner of the property or shut the **** up.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I didn't know you were the one giving orders here. STFU yourself, *******.

We don't need to cuss each other out, guys.
DE, you've made your point. Farther, you've made yours.
The logic and rationale behind everyone's arguments and feelings on the issue have all been clearly stated.
It's obvious now that we are all disagreeing on a difference of opinion.
Soo...lets just agree to disagree, shall we?

_________________
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

I have no problem with this, but I don't put up with it when someone tells me to "shut the **** up". I'll take that from no one.

But, in answer to the question posed I'd like to point out that trained, experienced firefighters sometimes lose their lives while fighting fires. How much greater is the danger to an untrained guy with a garden hose? If folks cannot see how that constitutes an emergency situation, then I don't know what else to tell yas. Believe what you want.

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

HAHAHAHA... Let's look at this... the fire started when he was burning trash. So in the act of arson... his house burned down. But he expected the FD to put it out without the fee being paid.

If all the feelgood bullshit is going to continue, I hope someone tries to prosecute him for arson.

Let's review again shall we... the guy started a fire, and it got out of control and caused this problem... screw him

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

You have to love it when the milk of human kindness and compassion flows so abundantly. May you never make a mistake that you need help with. If you do, may you hear that great statement, "screw him." What goes around, comes around, so they say.

This guy is by all accounts a classless douche. He was a slackass who didn't pay his fair share of the cost. He was a repeat offender. And I hope that the silver lining in this tragedy is that through it, he's learned a valuable lesson. But...

Managing to summon the basic human decency necessary to have empathy for a family who just lost all their worldly possessions can in no way be dismissed as "feelgood bullshit," no matter how many internet tough-guys want to pretend otherwise.

I'm not saying everyone has to agree that putting out the fire before the payment issue was sorted out. I believe it should have been, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the vicious attacks and near glee people here seem to be taking in this family's misfortune, celebrating the fact that this guy gambled and lost, completely devoid of any sympathy for the situation. It's downright ghoulish, and disgusting.

Farther,
I am willing to accept responsibility for my own actions or inactions so whatever dude, so I do not worry about being told "screw you". The milk of human kindness ends when he expects to get something without feeling the need to follow the rules. It is the same bullshit as welfare abuse. You (not you personally) expect others to foot the bill when you need something without regards to the even trying to be part of the system before trying to take from others. You have read the responses here, but have done absolutely nothing but regurgitate the same tired responses. Sounds REALLY familiar to many of us. But in returning the sentiment you wished me... May You (personally) feel the effects of being on the other side and losing out to some douche who took the resources you were entitled to because they felt they had deserved it, even without contributing.

Farsky,
Plain and simple he was starting a fire and then when he **** up he expected others to save his ***. Trying to turn it into something where someone is some sort of monster because they think this douche got what he deserved is feelgood bullshit.

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Okay FarSky and Farther, I understand your desire to see people get the government services they need, and your empathy for the Cranick family. This however is not about the greed of a city causing a family to lose its home. The city did not set the fire, they just followed published public policy on the use of its resources. The City kept its word to the County residents who pay the annual fee.

Lets refer back to the original post.



It isn't a lack of empathy for the Cranicks. I feel sorry for the the rest of the family, that they lost their home because Mr. Cranick decided to not pay for the service.

I do not see how the firefighters had any choice. They work for the City of South Fulton. Mr. Cranick and his family live outside the city limits, in the county of Obion. The firefigther's orders are to only fight fires outside the city limits of South Fulton for Obion County residents who have paid the voluntary fee. Mr. Cranick admitted he thought he could get away with not paying for the service, in spite of what was published. He expected a city he isn't even a resident of to come out and save his home when he had refused to pay their very reasonable annual fee.

Since no lives were in danger, since this wasn't a life or death situation, in what way is it in the interest of the City of South Fulton to do that? In this economy why would they take an action almost guaranteed to reduce their revenue since it will be seen by the other subscribers as a breach of contract and proof that the fee need not be paid to receive the service. If, in spite of their published policy of only fighting the fires of county residents who subscribe to the service, if they put this guy's fire out - why should anyone else continue to subscribe and provide the revenue the City of South Fulton needs to maintain its equipment and pay its firefighters.

It is sad the family lost their home because Mr. Cranick was a cheapskate who thought he could get the firefighting service for free if he ever needed it. He refused to believe he needed to pay for the service and it cost him his home.

When the fire spread to his subscribing neighbor's property and the firefighters took action to save that property, the firefighters were fulfilling the terms of the contract. From the city of South Fulton's perspective, what better piece of marketing of the service could they have had, what better example on the value of subscribing, of paying the annual $75 fee, than that of seeing the non-subscriber lose everything while the subscriber received the benefit of the service he had paid for? It is a hard lesson, especially for the Cranicks, but in this era I expect to see more examples of this kind of restructuring of public services to non-residents of (and non-taxpayers to) a nearby municipality to a fee based system.

Working in Government I've been watching the social service departments in California counties and cities being much more responsible about weeding out the ineligible receivers of services and referring them to the appropriate authority to provide services for them. Follow the money. If no one is going to reimburse the city or county for services to nonresidents they can't afford to give them out for free anymore. They never could but used to anyway, but that is another story. This is part of the coming return to austerity that Khross has been promoting for a couple of years now.

If you aren't a resident the services are no longer available to you. This is an extension of that policy. Their county government does not provide firefighting service. A nearby city does, for a fee. If you don't pay the annual fee you aren't eligible for the service, period.

The free ride is over folks, if you want public services be prepared to pay for them - either through taxes or fees. For those that need them, because of spreading the cost over all the tax and fee payers, public services are still a bargain. Our Libertarian brothers and sisters may hate the concept of public services in general but they are the system we have.

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Agreed.

I'm not seeing much glee. Just a whole lot of disgust for the peice of human trash that expected the free ride despite in effect giving the bird to anyone else who has ever had or will have a fire in his community. This man basically has already rooted for the fires against his neighbors, now he wants help?

Excuse me while I shed a tear.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Some more information was released, though with all the rumors going around, these may be as off as anything else...

1) The guy was burning trash in a barrel behind home.

2) He decided he needed a shower, so went inside, leaving the fire unattended.

3) When he came back out, the wood shed near the house was on fire.

4) He tried to use a garden hose to extinguish the shed fire, but was unsucessful.

5) The fire spread to the house, at which point he gave up using the garden hose and called the FD.

6) The FD refused to respond to the fire.

7) 3 years previous, the same family had a chimney fire, had not paid the fee, but the FD responded and put out the fire. He has not paid the fee since.

8) The FD did respond when the fire spread to the neighbor's yard and put out that portion of the fire.

And for those who don't believe basic human nature is that bad...



Yeah, great. So now the people who are willing to pay could be left without service, because of this jackass and the people who agree he should have gotten a free ride.

As far as free rides go, on reading up further on this issue, it appears these fire departents will respond if human lives are at stake, even if they haven't paid their dues. But they are not risking their own lives and spending taxpayer money merely to save property when the homeowners refused to pay up.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █