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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:53 pm 
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39536917/ns/us_news/

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Black judge rejects plea deal for 'white boy'
Says three months of probation for fighting with a cop is 'ridiculous'

PITTSBURGH — A black judge from western Pennsylvania rejected a plea agreement for a man accused of fighting with police during a traffic stop, saying it was "a ridiculous plea that only goes to white boys."

The plea agreement was for a sentence of three months probation. Allegheny County Judge Joseph Williams said on Tuesday that a black defendant in that situation would not have been treated as leniently.

In court, Williams told Assistant District Attorney Brian Catanzarite that he "for some reason comes up with I think ridiculous pleas whenever it's a young white guy," according to The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. "I'm just telling you what my observation is. If this had been a black kid who did the same thing, we wouldn't be talking about three months' probation."

Catanzarite responded that he was standing in for another prosecutor and didn't broker the plea deal.

"Now that the court has essentially called me a racist, I think that's unfair. I don't make offers based on race. I make offers based on facts," Catanzarite said, according to the Tribune-Review.

Williams later recused himself from the case, and a white judge accepted the plea agreement for 24-year-old Jeffery McGowan.

The defendant, who had no criminal record, agreed to plead guilty to disorderly conduct. He had faced charges including aggravated assault.

Williams' secretary on Wednesday told The Associated Press the judge does not give interviews.

The Allegheny County district attorney's office did not immediately return a call for comment Wednesday.

On Tuesday, Mike Manko, a spokesman for the district attorney's office, told the Tribune-Review the plea deal was appropriate and agreed to by the officer, who was not injured.

"Negotiated pleas are never based on the race of a particular defendant but rather on the behavior of the defendant and the facts associated with that behavior," Manko told the newspaper.

"The assistant district attorneys who handled this plea on behalf of the commonwealth have outstanding reputations, and we firmly stand behind their integrity and the integrity of all of our prosecutors."

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:00 am 
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So the judge played the race card? Is there some quota that it has to be played X amount of times and the judge was just keeping up so he could go home on time?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:59 am 
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Going from aggrevated assault to disorderly conduct does sound like a big step, but the judges comments should get him disbarred.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:49 am 
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It would be kind of a big step, but people fight with police officers all the time, especially young kids with big heads. If the officer wasn't seriously hurt and the kid didn't try to kill him, there's no reason the plea deal shouldn't have gone through. I don't have a problem with a judge rejecting a plea deal in and of itself, but doing it on racial grounds is absolutely inexcuseable.

Really, when young kids fight with the cops, they just need a slap on the wrist after thinking they had ruined their whole life, so that they learn better. Unless they tried to kill the cop, or cause severe bodily harm there's really no reason they need a felony on their record unless there was some other, more severe crime going on as well. Hell, we don't have enough room in the jails for this sort of thing anyhow.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:14 am 
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Actually, I'd wager that a young black man probably would get a plea bargain like that one, considering how much scrutiny is on the justice system when it comes to race.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:27 pm 
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Id wager if we ran the numbers, we would see that being the case. Of course the numbers reveal all sort of nasty non politically correct statistics so that'll never fly.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:46 pm 
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If the judge can back his claim up with actual cases with and without plea deals, I see no problem with his refusal to nix the plea deal. I do see this as a case for a judicial review board to investigate though.

Okay your Honor, you've made a pretty serious charge. Prove it in a court of law.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:05 pm 
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You know, Micheal, I don't think so. Even if he's right, "affirmative action" has no place on the bench.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Justice being impartial to race, creed, gender, etc. does however have a place on the bench. If he perceives inequality it is his responsibility as a judge to speak up and do something about it. Whether he should do that in the middle of a trial is another question.

The defendants lawyers are certain to appeal. The refused plea bargain will come back in the next judge's chambers, whether the young man in question is ultimately hurt by the first judge's actions remain to be seen.

As I said above, the case should receive judicial review. There is a process that needs to be followed before a judge is disciplined, just as with most professions. The judge's action is, in my opinion too, out of line. This does not mean the mob gets to take him out and lynch him. He gets due process of law, or the whole system means nothing.

I do not know the particulars of that case or the plethora of other cases the judge has seen where young men attacked police officers, I do not know how justified he may feel he is in that statement. He should get his day in court to prove his point.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:29 pm 
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Talya wrote:
You know, Micheal, I don't think so. Even if he's right, "affirmative action" has no place on the bench.


I think what Michael is saying is that if blacks don't get the plea deals, then whites shouldn't either. I can agree with that in principle, but in practice I'd say that really both should be getting the plea deals in cases like this. It's for the good of the defendant, the good of the justice and penal system and the good of the taxpayer.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:42 pm 
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Pretty much, either everyone with the same level of offense is eligible for them, or no one is.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:46 pm 
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I should point out though, that this doesn't mean a judge should never throw out a plea deal on the individual merits of a case. Eligable, yes. However, if this is ole boy's 4th time getting caught fighting with the cops, evidently he is not getting the message and doesn't need any more plea deals.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
However, if this is ole boy's 4th time getting caught fighting with the cops, evidently he is not getting the message and doesn't need any more plea deals.


Then... you do not even need court. You need an off button for the camera, a phone book and a police baton. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:27 am 
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darksiege wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
However, if this is ole boy's 4th time getting caught fighting with the cops, evidently he is not getting the message and doesn't need any more plea deals.


Then... you do not even need court. You need an off button for the camera, a phone book and a police baton. :)

As entertaining and effective as that would be it would just cause more people to bemoan the "brutality of our uniformed oppressors"

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:16 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
However, if this is ole boy's 4th time getting caught fighting with the cops, evidently he is not getting the message and doesn't need any more plea deals.


Then... you do not even need court. You need an off button for the camera, a phone book and a police baton. :)


Amusing as this is, chances are it wouldn't be the same cop more than once, so he wouldn't know until after the fact.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Based on my experience with cops, I'm sure the aggravated assault was nothing more than shoving a cop's hand off him or pushing back a cop that was in his face. Aggravated assault sounds like a big deal, but most of the time anything argumenative at all brings out the meathead in them.

That said, I agree with DE - little dumb **** that happens all the time does not need to be made into a big deal.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:08 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Based on my experience with cops, I'm sure the aggravated assault was nothing more than shoving a cop's hand off him or pushing back a cop that was in his face. Aggravated assault sounds like a big deal, but most of the time anything argumenative at all brings out the meathead in them.


In most cases, any sort of assault on a police officer is some sort of aggravated or felonious assault just because the victim is a police officer.. or corrections officer, firefighter, postal worker, etc. It has nothing to do with "bringing out the meathead"; you can't assume they charged something ridiculous from the name of the statute.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Based on my experience with cops, I'm sure the aggravated assault was nothing more than shoving a cop's hand off him or pushing back a cop that was in his face. Aggravated assault sounds like a big deal, but most of the time anything argumenative at all brings out the meathead in them.


In most cases, any sort of assault on a police officer is some sort of aggravated or felonious assault just because the victim is a police officer.. or corrections officer, firefighter, postal worker, etc. It has nothing to do with "bringing out the meathead"; you can't assume they charged something ridiculous from the name of the statute.


No, what I'm getting at is that with the typical meathead officer, of which there are very many, any disagreement and they get all handsy, and love to get in your face. Touching them at all is "aggravated assault", which is a load of horseshit. So, while I don't know the details of this case, I suspect it was something along these lines.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:29 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
No, what I'm getting at is that with the typical meathead officer, of which there are very many some, any disagreement and they get all handsy, and love to get in your face. Touching them at all is "aggravated assault", which is a load of horseshit. So, while I don't know the details of this case, I suspect it was something along these lines.


Fixed.

In any case, that's what the law indicates and there really is no reason you should be touching a cop at all when he's on duty unless its something you're invited to do. In many jurisdictions any unwanted touch is battery; in fact giving unwanted first aid can be battery - to anyone, not just to a police officer.

When you're close enough to touch a cop, that's dangerous. He doesn't know you or what you might be planning to do. There's no good reason to do that. That's why it's aggravated assault. When it's something minor, that's why we leave it to judges and prosecutors and defense attorneys to work out the final disposition.

As for your personal experiences and people "loving to get in your face", none of us were there for that. That's your side of the story.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
No, what I'm getting at is that with the typical meathead officer, of which there are very many some, any disagreement and they get all handsy, and love to get in your face. Touching them at all is "aggravated assault", which is a load of horseshit. So, while I don't know the details of this case, I suspect it was something along these lines.


Fixed.



/shrug

Extrapolating my experiences, it would be 100% of city cops, 90% of county cops, 10% of state cops, 0% of federal cops (park rangers and MPs).

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When you're close enough to touch a cop, that's dangerous. He doesn't know you or what you might be planning to do.


I would argue that yes, he does, which is why he's in your face and touching you. He wants you to push him back or brush his hand away. That's the motivation for being in your face.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:36 pm 
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How bout just not being a douchebag to the cops?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
No, what I'm getting at is that with the typical meathead officer, of which there are very many some, any disagreement and they get all handsy, and love to get in your face. Touching them at all is "aggravated assault", which is a load of horseshit. So, while I don't know the details of this case, I suspect it was something along these lines.


Fixed.



/shrug

Extrapolating my experiences, it would be 100% of city cops, 90% of county cops, 10% of state cops, 0% of federal cops (park rangers and MPs).
I don't think we can extrapolate personal anecdote in that way and expect any validity. Are you really having that many experiences with city cops? If so, why is that, and what's your own behavior like? No need to answer, just think about it. Based on my experiences, MPs are almost universally douchebags while any other sort is far less likely to be. That's just my anecdotal experience but it doesn't match yours.

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I would argue that yes, he does, which is why he's in your face and touching you. He wants you to push him back or brush his hand away. That's the motivation for being in your face.


Is he? Again, that's your side of the story. This could have happened, but if you think it happens all the time there's a problem with your perceptions. There's a lot of good reasons not to do that, and really, fighting is not fun. You can get hurt that way and none of us want to get hurt. There's no reason to think that was the case here.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:48 pm 
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Its been my experience that police, as do most people, tend to react to people based upon the average of the experience with others.

The worse the typical encounter is for a police officer in terms of citizen response, the more the police officer assumes everyone he stops/deals with is of similiar character and starts the encounter with such a mindset.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:12 pm 
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Müs wrote:
How bout just not being a douchebag to the cops?


That's funny that you assume that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Müs wrote:
How bout just not being a douchebag to the cops?


That's funny that you assume that.


If you have multiple encounters with the cops going that way, what's the common element there?

That's not to say you necessarily are a douchebag to the cops, but a lot of people who seem to encounter unpleasent cops all the time seem to not be willing to examine their own behavior.

I've had people say that before. "The officer got in my face".

Then it eventually comes out through video or whatever that it was something else entirely. It's just like "the officer swore at me". It's amazing how a question like "Do you know the speed limit here?" becomes a swear word when its convenient.

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