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Corolinth
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Interesting. Mail delivery is one of the few purviews that the federal government was actually intended to have.

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Kaffis Mark V
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:45 am 
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On the chant thing, I suspect it's most likely that there was a mix initially, and that's why it's ambiguous. Choosing to highlight that clip and subtitle it the way they did definitely implicates MSNBC in choosing to portray a narrative where Romney's so boring and lousy that even his rally attendees would rather support his running mate, though.

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Rynar
 Post subject: Re: Ouch.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:15 am 
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Aethien wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
On the topic of paying taxes vs not paying taxes, you must also consider where money comes from.

Consider, for example, a public school teacher. On paper, it looks like they pay taxes. All of their income is received from tax dollars, so all they're really doing is deferring a part of their total compensation until the next year. Postal workers are another example. On paper, they appear to pay taxes. They are paid in tax dollars.

Any group that is paid out of the public coffers does not pay taxes. We simply have them fill out IRS returns so that they can feel like they've paid their dues. Make no mistake, these groups do not pay taxes. They receive taxes. Presumably, they receive tax money for performing some valuable function, so they do make a contribution to society, but it is not monetary.

Just to clarify, the Postal Service no longer receives a significant portion of its income from the government:

Wikipedia wrote:
The USPS has not directly received taxpayer-dollars since the early 1980s with the minor exception of subsidies for costs associated with the disabled and overseas voters.


Its Annual Report shows a $3B contribution from the US Government, out of an operating revenue of $65B. Maybe you're thinking of some other way to categorize how they get paid - guaranteed monopoly on first-class mail, etc. - but the USPS is no longer a taxpayer-funded organization, for the most part.

It absolutely is tax-payer funded, but the taxes that fund it are largely voluntary rather than income based. It's a government created, managed, and imposed monopoly on service just as national defense is a government created, managed, and imposed monopoly on service. Just because the coinciding tax is consumption based rather than confiscatory doesn't mean it's not a tax.

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RangerDave
 Post subject: Re: Ouch.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:05 pm 
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How is the post office a government-imposed monopoly? Is there legislation prohibiting other carriers (e.g. Fed Ex and UPS) from offering certain competing services or something?
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Mookhow
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Private companies can deliver parcels, but they are forbidden from delivering mail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... oly_status
Wikipedia wrote:
Article I, section 8, Clause 7 of the United States Constitution grants Congress the power to establish post offices and post roads, which has been interpreted as a de facto Congressional monopoly over the delivery of mail. Accordingly, no other system for delivering mail – public or private – can be established, absent Congress's consent.

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RangerDave
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Huh. I had no idea. I figured Fed Ex et. al just opted not to bother with standard mail delivery because it wasn't profitable.
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Rorinthas
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:39 pm 
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The irony... it burns.

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Aizle
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
The irony... it burns.


Shut down the mail system and see how many businesses die or how much product prices go up. Mail is part of the infrastructure that allows a fertile business environment, much like roads or other public services.

Profit isn't the only measure of a successful or worthwhile endeavor.
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Rorinthas
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I'm all for the mail as it stands, though I think we could do without Saturday delivery if it helps them balance their books.

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Aizle
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
I'm all for the mail as it stands, though I think we could do without Saturday delivery if it helps them balance their books.


Yup, I agree. I don't really see the value in Saturday delivery, at least for residential service. I could maybe see it for businesses, but not sure if keeping businesses would be feasible or not.
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Hopwin
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Or we could make congress stop forcing the post office to prepay their retirement account by 75 years. It seems excessive to fund a pension fund for people who haven't been born yet.

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Slythe
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Or we could make congress stop forcing the post office to prepay their retirement account by 75 years. It seems excessive to fund a pension fund for people who haven't been born yet.


^ ding ding. This is one of the main reasons the post office is in such poor fiscal shape, that not many people know about. Congress uses it as a lender.
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Hopwin
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:00 am 
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Slythe wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Or we could make congress stop forcing the post office to prepay their retirement account by 75 years. It seems excessive to fund a pension fund for people who haven't been born yet.


^ ding ding. This is one of the main reasons the post office is in such poor fiscal shape, that not many people know about. Congress uses it as a lender.

Shhhh!

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Nitefox
 Post subject: Re: Ouch.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:17 am 
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Just to clear up the MSNBC tape doctoring thing...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/mo ... -that-didn

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/us/po ... .html?_r=0


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After Mr. Ryan whooped up the crowd in Vandalia on Tuesday, Mr. Romney moved to the front of the stage. As the crowd began chanting “Romney! Romney!” he cut them off.“Wait a second,” Mr. Romney said, instructing the audience to cheer for “Romney-Ryan! Romney-Ryan!” They did.

“There we go,” he said, pleased.

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DFK!
 Post subject: Re: Ouch.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:22 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Profit isn't the only measure of a successful or worthwhile endeavor.


Yes it is. What other metric would you suggest that actually allows such a hypothetical endeavor to continue to function?

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RangerDave
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:31 am 
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Elections. Voters elect representatives and/or pass referenda with an agenda that includes the relevant endeavor and the tax levies necessary to pay for it.
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Diamondeye
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:51 am 
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DFK! wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Profit isn't the only measure of a successful or worthwhile endeavor.


Yes it is. What other metric would you suggest that actually allows such a hypothetical endeavor to continue to function?


If I set out to kick your *** at Warhammer 40K, would you suggest that the fact that I made no money on it meant I failed?

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DFK!
 Post subject: Re: Ouch.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:37 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Profit isn't the only measure of a successful or worthwhile endeavor.


Yes it is. What other metric would you suggest that actually allows such a hypothetical endeavor to continue to function?


If I set out to kick your *** at Warhammer 40K, would you suggest that the fact that I made no money on it meant I failed?


Ah, but every game played or hour spent on a durable product such as miniatures is return on the original expenditure. Entertainment hours have value. Leisure time has value.

Now, how we all value it is different, but even leisure activities come down to a mental P&L tabulation.

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DFK!
 Post subject: Re: Ouch.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:39 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elections. Voters elect representatives and/or pass referenda with an agenda that includes the relevant endeavor and the tax levies necessary to pay for it.


Except that they vote for people and laws with a profit motive in mind. They may not think of it explicitly, but they consider "who/what will benefit me most?" That's profit motive.

Everything is profit motive.

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TheRiov
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:01 am 
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What exactly is my profit motive for voting for humanitarian aid for Bora Bora?
What is my profit motive for voting for marriage equality?
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Hopwin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:32 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
What exactly is my profit motive for voting for humanitarian aid for Bora Bora?
What is my profit motive for voting for marriage equality?

Moral superiority.

Or the biological rewards of altruism.

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TheRiov
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:35 am 
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So your argument is that there are no unselfish acts?
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FarSky
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:36 am 
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Jeebus, we've turned the thread into a 'Friends' episode
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Müs
 Post subject: Re: Ouch.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:38 am 
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FarSky wrote:
Jeebus, we've turned the thread into a 'Friends' episode


"The One Where They Argue Politics"

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Hopwin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:53 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
So your argument is that there are no unselfish acts?

I am making no argument whatsoever. Take it up with biologists.

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