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Stathol
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
If a woman can choose to sever the link on her own, can a man sever a financial link then T?

I think this addresses that:
Talya wrote:
Honestly, i think a man should be able to absolve himself of that responsibility by advocating abortion (in a signed document provided to the mother) --and agreeing to help pay for it-- before a determined age of viability. If they both agree to have the child, they should both be forced to support it. If the mother elects to have it without the father's support, that's her choice. (Of course, if she doesn't inform the father of the pregnancy, the responsibility is also on her.)

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Mookhow
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:32 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
I smell a giant elephant in the room and it's bothering me to no end. Talya, with all sympathy and my own baggage aside, have you had an abortion?


Talya wrote:
just as I personally find abortion distasteful and would never have one

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Uncle Fester
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
If a woman can choose to sever the link on her own, can a man sever a financial link then T?

I think this addresses that:
Talya wrote:
Honestly, i think a man should be able to absolve himself of that responsibility by advocating abortion (in a signed document provided to the mother) --and agreeing to help pay for it-- before a determined age of viability. If they both agree to have the child, they should both be forced to support it. If the mother elects to have it without the father's support, that's her choice. (Of course, if she doesn't inform the father of the pregnancy, the responsibility is also on her.)



Missed that, Danke!

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Talya
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Talya wrote:
Yes, they should. And actually, I believe old-style vacuum abortions after viability should be treated the same way. Induced labor, however, should always be allowed. It's up to the fetus whether or not it can survive the outside world (with whatever medical help is available). The mother should not be forced to shelter it from such.

Ok; so in those cases, they should be charged with murder -- but why? They never entered into any parental agreement. They didn't actively deprive it of its life. They just abandoned it to fend for itself, and it failed. So rationally, why should they be charged with anything?


There is an accepted legal method for giving up a child that has already been born. Note that mothers who abandon newborns are generally not charged with murder. It's a type of negligence. In NY State I believe there is an offshoot of manslaughter called "Depraved indifference." When an easy and cost-free method exists to save a life, we have an obligation to take that method.

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Talya
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:47 pm 
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I have not had an abortion.

I did once have an accidental miscarriage, and the emotional effects of it are likely what inspires my emotional dislike of abortion in general. I'll never know what Lachlan&Keira's big sister would have been like.

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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Talya wrote:

By medical definition, a fetus is actually a parasite, as the stipulation that it be a different type of organism is unstated.

Quote:
Parasite: An organism that lives in or on and takes its nourishment from another organism. A parasite cannot live independently.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art ... lekey=4769


Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host.

Brief definitions tend to suck Taly. Also the label of parasite applies to the species. So any species that reproduces is parasitic to you.

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Müs
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Talya wrote:

By medical definition, a fetus is actually a parasite, as the stipulation that it be a different type of organism is unstated.

Quote:
Parasite: An organism that lives in or on and takes its nourishment from another organism. A parasite cannot live independently.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art ... lekey=4769


Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host.

Brief definitions tend to suck Taly. Also the label of parasite applies to the species. So any species that reproduces is parasitic to you.


Semantics.

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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:32 am 
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Müs wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:

Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host.

Brief definitions tend to suck Taly. Also the label of parasite applies to the species. So any species that reproduces is parasitic to you.


Semantics.



Not an argument. Not a position. If you have a better way to communicate than via language please give it to us otherwise we require words to share common meaning in order to communicate effectively.

Until then **** or get off the pot.

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Lenas
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:37 pm 
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You can argue different definitions all day from different sources and count how many of them use the words "other species," I guess. Even Wikipedia has two slightly different statements:
Quote:
A parasite is an organism that lives on or inside another organism to the detriment of the host organism.
Quote:
Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host.

Or maybe look up the etymology of parasite and see if it means what you think it means.

You really are just arguing semantics, though.
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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:15 pm 
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The mainstay of a poster in the discussion centers on the belief the fetus is a parasite - thus semantics about that are inherent in the discussion.

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Lenas
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:30 pm 
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Would you be okay with saying parasite-like, or using the qualifier, "... like a parasite" instead? Then we're just making a reference to behavior, still conveying the same message, and avoiding a stupid **** argument.
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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:58 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Would you be okay with saying parasite-like, or using the qualifier, "... like a parasite" instead? Then we're just making a reference to behavior, still conveying the same message, and avoiding a stupid **** argument.


It would be better but just slightly.

I don't ever recall seeing any parasite look after its host in old age after it detached from the host which occurs quite often with the children of human parents.

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Lenas
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:04 pm 
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I'd say that's more of a morality-based decision, and not an instinctual one.
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Diamondeye
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:08 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Lenas wrote:
Would you be okay with saying parasite-like, or using the qualifier, "... like a parasite" instead? Then we're just making a reference to behavior, still conveying the same message, and avoiding a stupid **** argument.


It would be better but just slightly.

I don't ever recall seeing any parasite look after its host in old age after it detached from the host which occurs quite often with the children of human parents.


At that point no one is contesting whether its a parasite. I agree with you that it isn't a parasite, but you're trying to bring in facts that have nothing to do with whether its a parasite or not.

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Lex Luthor
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:10 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
I'd say that's more of a morality-based decision, and not an instinctual one.


Are you aware that our brains are developed from very similar processes that form animal brains? Maybe our "morality-based decisions" are just sophisticated instinct. At what point does an animal-like ancestor of humans caring for its parent stop being instinct and start being morality?
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Vindicarre
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:11 pm 
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To be honest, at this point, it looks like it's been pretty much conceded that it's not a parasite, as defined, just being characterized as such. Elmo's bringing in facts that dispute that characterization.

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Last edited by Vindicarre on Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:11 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
I'd say that's more of a morality-based decision, and not an instinctual one.


I only know of two cultures in human history that deviate from this. My knowledge of course is not perfect however it can be easily argued that such a thing is evident in over 90% of the existing human population. Is family bonding that different from the pack instinct?

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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Lenas wrote:
Would you be okay with saying parasite-like, or using the qualifier, "... like a parasite" instead? Then we're just making a reference to behavior, still conveying the same message, and avoiding a stupid **** argument.


It would be better but just slightly.

I don't ever recall seeing any parasite look after its host in old age after it detached from the host which occurs quite often with the children of human parents.


At that point no one is contesting whether its a parasite. I agree with you that it isn't a parasite, but you're trying to bring in facts that have nothing to do with whether its a parasite or not.



Except that things are defined as a parasite by a species. Unless we argue that all humans are parasitic (which is moot so that could be another thread) and then since anything that reproduces expends energy and thus risks its own health to reproduce - which of course then every living thing is parasitic rendering the word meaningless. So yeah its still an important factor to consider.

Cows - not parasites
Tapeworms - parasites

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Diamondeye
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
At that point no one is contesting whether its a parasite. I agree with you that it isn't a parasite, but you're trying to bring in facts that have nothing to do with whether its a parasite or not.



Except that things are defined as a parasite by a species. Unless we argue that all humans are parasitic (which is moot so that could be another thread) and then since anything that reproduces expends energy and thus risks its own health to reproduce - which of course then every living thing is parasitic rendering the word meaningless. So yeah its still an important factor to consider.

Cows - not parasites
Tapeworms - parasites


I don't disagree with this line of reasoning. That, however, has ntohing to do with whether a parasite can care for its host in old age. Stick with the species line of reasoning, it's much better.

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Lex Luthor
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Really the problem is when a mature parasite (the man) comes in line of sight of the woman (the host). The parasite then first attacks her mind, eventually manipulating her to allow tiny parasites to enter her body. One takes root and uses her as a host.
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Vindicarre
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Or, one could say:
Really the problem is when a mature parasite (the woman) comes in line of sight of the host (the man) she desires. The parasite then first attacks his mind, eventually manipulating him to deposit tiny gametes into her body. One takes root and the pair use him as a host.

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Elmarnieh
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I have a feeling from now on its going to be self mocking our species.

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Lex Luthor
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Also it's a little hypocritical to call something inside of you a "parasite", which has strong negative connotations, when you yourself were once in that same role.

It's like a rich black person, who was once poor, saying "yea you have the choice to go lynch those poor niggers, after all they're just niggers. And poor so nobody really cares." Ok maybe I got carried away. :P
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Lenas
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:56 pm 
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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:06 pm 
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No but certainly it is incorrect to call a fetus of any species a parasite to its parent.

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