The Glade 4.0

Really? What do you call a spade? A "Wooden-handled earthen excavationary device"?

The correct term for their status is "Illegal Alien" If they entered legally, they would be "Legal Aliens". The name of the card that shows legal status is "Alien Registration Card". They would fill out an "Immigrant Visa and Alien Registration" form to get one of these cards...

So yes, they are indeed Illegal Aliens. This is the correct and proper term.

The people themselves are not illegal. Their continued residence inside a country to which they have not legally emigrated is. Think of it as trespassing on a federal level. You go into someone else's house and live there, and work there in direct contravention of their desire that you leave. And then ***** that they're not stocking the fridge with food you like. I don't care that they want to come here. Just do it in the correct, legal manner. Allow me to welcome you into my house so to speak.

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Holy shitsnacks!

If they are not illegal aliens then I am not a murderer, I am a non law sanctioned, independent entropy assistant.

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Okay. So I'll call them non-citizen felons, if that makes you feel better. See, felons are people who have committed a felony.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Undocumented? I guess that is the tissue to the nose to stop the stench of accuracy. They don't have documents because they entered the country illegally. It isn't because the documents are back at the apartment or over at grandmas. They have no documents that state they entered the country legally because they broke the law and came here illegally. The action of remaining in the country without having entered legally is a crime. If it isn't, why are they deported when they are found out? Their presence in the country is a continuing crime, Monte. The action of staying here, working here, or collecting benefits here, these are the actions you are referring to, the actions that make their continued presence a crime.

Think of it as trespassing or squatting. Both of those are crimes, it isn't the initial access to the property alone, it is the continued presence.The first crime is the illegal entry. They don't get to pay a fine for that and stay. They get caught, they get deported.

Due to the tough economic times, these days there are American citizens willing to do the work the 'guest workers' were risking their lives to get.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Yet "birther", and "teabagger" are great descriptives that don't dehumanize at all.

Alinsky would be proud.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

None of those terms "dehumanizes" anyone. "Dehumanizing" requires a lot more than just a term. It's a form of "otherization", as Khross says, but the difference is that "Illegal Alien" is a form of othering based on perfectly valid legal status. They're supposed to be otherized because they are committing a crime. Calling people "inmates" or "convicts" otherizes as well, and for perfectly good reason.

Calling them "undocumented" is simply an attempt to gloss over their illegal activity. It doesn't otherize them any less. It's just masking an agenda as a concern that the not be "dehumanized", which is silly. It's not like anyone is going to think they're wookies because of the term Illegal Alien.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Undocumented doesn't even buy any additional leeway. I still don't have my motorcycle liscense. If I got pulled over, should I tell the officer "No, it's not that I don't have a liscense, it's that I'm an undocumented driver. So I'm not doing anything illegal."

Lack of possession of documentation is illegal.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Fiberglass hater!

Good call.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

No wonder a lot of us have been lumped into the same catagory, since we all seem to pick up on the same wrongs when they are posted.... must be a conspiricy!

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Different people are offended by different things, for different reasons. That doesn't invalidate the offense.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

What the heck is "validating" or "invalidating" the offense?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Some people are very quick to howl about how other people shouldn't be offended. People have every right to be offended and express themselves as a result, at whatever they happen to be offended by.

In other words, if people are offended by the use of the word "teabagger" to describe the screamers at town hall meetings, they should say so. I happen to find this costume offensive for the reasons I laid out above.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

That's all true, but so what?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Exactly.

Someone brought up the thread, I explained why I found it offensive, and suddenly it was pandemonium, lol.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

That isn't correct at all. Possession of stolen property is criminal. So is possession of controlled substances.

You are correct that acts are criminal, not people. However, residence is an act, any way you define it. Just because it's a continuous, ongoing action rather than a discrete moment in time doesn't make it any less an act. Unless, of course, you want to argue that, say, jogging and breathing are not acts.

If we want to be totally correct, perhaps the term should be "illegally immigrated aliens" or "illegally resident aliens", but that's really just arguing semantics. I think the real heart of the matter is that -- legalities aside -- you don't think people are actually doing anything wrong by immigrating illegally to and continuing to reside illegally within the United States. Others disagree. I posit for your consideration that you may not actually be so much offended by the semantics of the "illegal alien" label as you are by the suggestion that illegal residence is bad.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

But you wouldn't refer to someone who had stolen property as an "illegal posessor". Residence is not an act. It's a state of being. I live in this place.

Alien is a term I also object to. It dehumanizes them. "Others" them, if you will. They aren't human. They're alien. Foreign. Different. Not us.

They are people. Frankly, they're people that were here a heck of a long time before we took their land. The vast majority of them are hard working people looking to make a dream.

Quick survey - how many of you exceeded the speed limit today on your way to work? By how much? How about over the weekend? How many of you downloaded something for free you should have paid for?

The fact is, all of us break laws. You don't go around calling someone who habitually drives 5 over the speed limit an "Illegal Driver". You don't call someone that smokes pot an "illegal smoker".

You don't call someone currently engaged in sex while under the age of consent an "illegal ****".

But for some reason, crossing the border illegally is this ginormous horror that makes a person not only illegal 100% of the time, but also something less than human.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Someone who has stolen property is a goddamn thief.


Yes. They are foreign and different. The term 'alien' is perfectly usable for this, and has been for hundreds of years. Hell, my mom was an alien.



Tu Quoque fallacy :p



No, they're rapists. Statutory Rapists. Although, I *much* prefer the term 'illegal ****'



No. It makes them criminals. On par with thieves and trespassers and drug traffickers. Not as bad as rapists and murderers and liberals.

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Holy shitsnacks!

You'd refer to them as a thief, though. So that's really not helping your case.


Orly?

Every one of those phrases is an infinitive. A verb. An action. You can say that it isn't an act all you want, but the English language doesn't agree with you.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

Mus - you honestly believe that a man who, having no opportunity to feed his family and lacking the means to enter this country legally, comes here illegally and gets a job, works hard to feed them, is the moral equivalent of say, a heroin dealer?

Really?

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

I feel your entire post has nothing to do with the issue at hand. However I'll play.

-Someone who is is possession of stolen property depending on the $ amount can be facing a felony. Federal time if it's from another state. So the entire time they are in possession of stolen property they are in a continuining state of being wrong. What you call it is irrelevent.

-Can I take up residence in your home? By the logic you've put forth, the next step should be repealing all tresspassing laws. How about I camp in your living room, use your heat, electric, gas and bathroom, and send a majority of my money back to my country. Feel free to send me whatever you feel is an acceptable subsidy for my illegal behavior.

-What shall we call these "aliens" then, shall we call them foregin invaders? International tresspassers? You can call them Strawberry Shortcake for all I care, but the laws need to be enforced.

-The United States has not taken land from Mexico in any lifetime of a person alive today. Your assertion that the citizens of the US "owe" them is utter and complete BS. Put the blame where it is due. I didn't take their land. I also never owned Slaves, wore an SS uniform, or killed an endangered species. If your social conscience feels you "owe" a demographic for some percieved wrong, feel free to open up your own F'ing wallet and pay them directly. Stop forcing others to fund your feel good social bs.

-Yes we all break laws. There are so many convuleted state and federal laws that it is inevitable that we break any number of them in our day to day activities. Thats also like saying water is wet. Not exactly a revelation thats going to change, prove or justify a damned thing. If your habitual speeder keeps getting caught- guess what, the penalties get upped all the way to a felony. And no, there isn't a legal wiggle room, unless the officer decides there is.

-As to your underaged "example" for whatever reason you included it, without the rest of the equation you can't decide the status of those involved. It could be two kids having fun, or it could be a 40 something adult predator banging a kid. However, if you are not a citizen of the US, and you are here without the proper documentation, you are in fact commiting a crime and are an illegal alien. No matter how much you object to an adjective, the facts will remain the same.

-Lets be honest, it is, tho less dramatic then you are describing it. How about we adopt NK's policy towards illegal immigration? Face it, the US tolerates illegal immigrants far more than any other country. Why doesn't the illegal immigration (rofl) lobby decry the policies of other countries or point to them as success stories?

We have laws to come to this country. If they are not followed, then everyone involved with the illegal entry as well as harboring the felons need to be held accountable for the crime. The very reason we have so many illegal aliens here is that we are very lax on enforcement.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Well, provided it's not rape, he entered the, ah, country with consent of the governing body.

I feel the laws in place regarding immigration are unjust. I have little problem with breaking an unjust law. Back in the day, it was illegal for a white man to marry a black woman. The *law* was unjust.

Did you speed today? Are you a bad or illegal person because you did? Did you speed yesterday? Have you ever smoked pot? Have you ever violated a law?

If so, then why do you think you have the right to judge these people?

Perhaps you don't feel that way, but using terms like "illegal alien" clearly implies a level of judgement.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

The we need to have the debate to change the law. The right draft would likely get my support. Immigration laws -are- broken, but so are a lot of laws but that doesn't give me liberty to break them. We don't get to pick and choose.

Yes I've broken the law, I also got punished for it when caught.

Really we need to go after the employers to be honest. No employers breaking the hiring law= no jobs = no (or at least significantly less) illegal (is immigrant an acceptable term?).

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Yes. Probably even more so. The illegal alien is taking services and resources for himself and his family without paying for them. At least the heroin dealer is only hurting those that want to be hurt.

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Holy shitsnacks!