The Glade 4.0

Please tell me you aren't being serious here?

Pretty please?

I had a revelation while re-reading this thread. Americans are stupid. Americans are lazy. And, most importantly, Americans suffer from sort of delusion brought about by the perceived wonders of Entitlement Programs. Has it never occurred to those of you who think we need social safety nets and socialized medicine and other things to make the United States more "European" that we ruled the world, indisputably, when everyone worked from sun up to sun down? When we worked 6 days a week making things the rest of the world needed? When we exported anything and everything, including weapons, to all the fractious and divided countries of the world? The United States didn't start to decline until people thought they were too good for a little work. And that sense of entitlement, that sense that every man, woman, and child needed a 6 figure office job didn't show up until we started paying people to breed instead of sweat in a field.

Of course, we also had a middle class back then, too.

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It's about priority. We lose many more lives to things like inner-city violence committed by our "own" people across the country than we do to border combat. My only point is maybe... maybe... there are some more important issues we could be focusing a little harder on, instead of the border always being such a hot topic.

The Japanese have an export-driven economy and a work ethic that makes Americans look ridiculously lazy.....and their economy has been **** for almost two decades.

Whoa, it took you this long to reach that epiphany? Phase 2 of receiving this vision is that American's don't give a **** and things will not get better. I am currently stuck at Phase 3 which is whether pop-culture is actively contributing to the decline of America, merely reflects it or by reflecting it amplifies it in some way. What will the children who grew up watching Jersey Shore (and thinking that is normal human behavior) do when they are older? What entitlements will today's children expect after they grew up watching the Kardashian's, Real Housewives of <insert random city here>, Paris Hilton and other celebrities who are famous for being rich (as opposed to earning riches)? You can already see the beginnings of this in the millennial generation who expect to start out at 60-80K per year for successfully buying a college diplomma.

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Expected and achieved.

This is why I included the bit about the 'short term' in there.

Having unjust laws on the books in the long term just makes no sense, and has no place in our legal system nor that of most any other country. It's pretty well recognized that there will exist legislation that need to be removed, and so procedures were put into place to do this. It's no secret, and it has been used plenty often, up to and including the Constitution.

It's only relevant now because a lot of people think the federal government is quick to demand no one else make any laws regarding immigration (justified by law AFAIK), yet don't actually go on to do anything about it. If they and the country think nothing should be done, then we should go ahead and open the borders officially. Letting the law on the books and not enforcing it as intended operating procedure leaves room for all sorts of abuses.

I'm trying to imagine a system with the doctrine of leaving unjust laws on the books and can't figure out a justification for doing it.

You should examine the reasons for that.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Well your point is weak. Inner-city violence is the city's problem to deal with. National sovereignty is the federal government's responsibility. San Diego is more insulated from the problem because they did the smart thing and put up a friggin' fence and patrol it.

Entire sections of Arizona hunting grounds are closed because they're rife with drug smuggling. Phoenix is (or at least was, haven't checked recent statistics) the kidnapping capital of the U.S. due to drug cartel activity. Drug and IA drop houses are becoming more common, leaving legal residents and citizens afraid to go out at night in their own neighborhoods (one of my co-workers falls into this category).

Don't even get me started on huge amount of money IA's consume in entitlements and education. Considering California's current fiscal problems, you should be incensed.

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The Dude abides.

Illegal immigrants consuming entitlements doesn't really incense me. At least they're working. There's a lot of people who aren't working that are consuming a lot more of their share of the entitlements.

They are required to pay minimum wage to people with visas. Its the people here illegally that get hired for less than minimum wage.



No, there is not a limit on H-1 visas.

As for the rest of it, so what? All you're doing is explaining why companies hire illegals. We know that. That's the problem.



That's exactly what should happen. They should be forced to hire Americans or go out of business, and the average American must be made to realize that they will have to pay more for some foods if they want the illegal immigrnt problem solved. Either that, or they will have to give up minimum wage.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

The only reason for this is that so much of the violence is on the other side of the border. Furthermore, a great deal of that inner city violence can be traced back to the border. Gangs and other criminals coming across are a major factor in inner city violence.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

First of all, illegal immigrants may or may not be working. A great many are not.

Second, your argument is simply A) yet another hasty generalization of illegals as hardworking people and B) an attempt to get around the fact that illegal immigrants are not entitled to any share of the entitlements.

The basic problem here is that you don't grasp that people who are not citizens have no right to be in this country. Being here is a privilege. You seem, from all appearances, to think that your LAPR status is some sort of right, and that this country should not enact any policy unfavorable to noncitizens, because that might include you. Worse, you seem not to grasp that this country is under no obligation whatsoever to maintain its good graces in allowing you to remain. We do so because it is generally beneficial to have laws in place that allow certain noncitizens to reside here. That, however, does not mean that there is some requirement that any and all noncitizens be allowed to come in whenever the **** they want. In fact, you of all people should be incensed since you have complied with the law and they have not.

Furthermore, you continue your general habit of arguing based on trying to make the problem look insurmountable. "But look! Too many illegals! We should quit trying to do anything about it!" It seems that whenever anyone proposes a change you don't like, you just come up with a bunch of assumptions as to why it can't be done.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Even in places like St. Louis or Baltimore?

Absolutely. Illegal immigrants are hardly confined to the southwest. Gangs like MS-13 have international presence.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

No, I just don't like the idea of arbitrary segregation based on who won the geographic lottery. Illegal immigrants with jobs contribute more to the country than the millions of Americans who refuse to work, while consuming far less entitlements than they do. (I'm not 100% clear on exactly what entitlements illegals can receive and which ones they can't, but it's definitely less than full citizens) In addition, I have serious doubts that Americans would ever be willing to perform the work the illegals currently do, and that if the illegals were ousted the farm production would just be moved offshore somewhere where labor is cheaper, which would not be much better for the economy.

The illegal immigrant problem isn't insurmountable but IMHO the amount it would cost to solve it significantly outweighs the benefits.

It cracks me up that you hear this argument all the time from white collar workers, and never from actual workers.

Wait.. wut?

Working where? Doing what?

Do you have some legitimate statistics demonstrating this low unemployment rate among illegal aliens?

Okay, speaking as a resident of St. Louis, how does this make it okay to ignore border security? I don't live in a border state, I live in St. Louis. I'm not qualified to hold an opinion on how they conduct their business regarding border control. I don't have coyotes smuggling people and drugs through my back yard. I don't have to live with the fallout when hundreds of people get dumped in an alley to find jobs and places to live.

We actually had a fiasco a while back where a municipality began deporting illegal immigrants, by the way. So the idea that illegal immigration is not a problem for the rest of the country is a flawed assessment. If it's made its way into the middle of the country, I can only imagine how big a deal it is in border states. It's easy to say illegal immigrants aren't a problem when you live in New England or Idaho. Now, if we don't want to spend federal funds to let Arizona police its section of the national border, then we need to sit down and shut the **** up about how they do it themselves. But we don't want to. We want to tell Arizona what they are and are not allowed to do. We can't get the idea of sovereign states through our thick skulls. That means we get to pay for Arizona's border security. That's the price of running our **** mouths, and getting in Arizona's business.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Actually, in Rhode Island it's a huge issue. We live in one of the most liberal areas of the country, and what laws we do have protecting US soveriegnty are largely ignored and unenforced. Our state capital is a sancturary city, and english is actually a minority language in almost all of our inner city schools. We alkso support one of the largest entitlement programs in tghe country which compounds the immigration problem terribly.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the East Coast have a big problem with Brazilians coming in illegaly?

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Predjudicial language. There is nothing "Arbitrary" about it, nor is it a "geographic lottery".



A) Show evidence
B) Illegal immigrants do not "contribute"; they take away by reducing the number of available jobs, and the value of those jobs.



In other words, you don't know at all, you're just assuming because you want it to be that way.



It "would just" be moved offshore? Where? Land is where it is and is suitable for the crops it is suitable for. We provide an immense amount of the world's agriculture. What makes you thinkt hat countries that can't farm well now, or which aren't big enough to match our volume will suddenly be able to? Your doubts are based entirely on your desire for the problem to be unsolveable.



And your opinion is based entirely on this idea that U.S. national soveriegnty is some sort of "geograpgic lottery". It's amazing how only the U.S. is expected to let whoever damn well pleases come in.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Glad you weren't born a couple of thousand miles to the South, DE.

http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/

There are lots of Americans who would do these jobs if they had too. Generally though, these people have jobs, because they're willing to work. Most people I know would have no problem doing these jobs if they didn't have better employment already.

That's a really cool website Lenas.