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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:54 am 
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Rafael wrote:
That's anecdotal. You do understand your (limited) life experiences do not parallel some universal truth, except for maybe you.


Everyone has "limited" life experiences. It's obviously better for everyone's mental health to want to reconcile instead of running away from eachother. We're all human. It's possible to relate to anybody.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:58 am 
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And obviously the world isn't perfect... the problem is that people would rather run away and exclude each other than express their feelings in person and sort things out. I guess that takes too much courage for most.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:07 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Rafael wrote:
That's anecdotal. You do understand your (limited) life experiences do not parallel some universal truth, except for maybe you.


Everyone has "limited" life experiences. It's obviously better for everyone's mental health to want to reconcile instead of running away from eachother. We're all human. It's possible to relate to anybody.


No it's not. The fact that you think it's obvious only reinforces my point and speaks volumes about the depths of your narcissism and arrogance. No one is discussing "running away". What was being discussed was ignoring a person who will not compromise. So tell me, is it better to be relentlessly submissive to a person who is unwilling to compromise for the sake of "relating to them" which is something you seem to be so obssesed with?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:08 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Rafael wrote:
That's anecdotal. You do understand your (limited) life experiences do not parallel some universal truth, except for maybe you.


Everyone has "limited" life experiences. It's obviously better for everyone's mental health to want to reconcile instead of running away from eachother. We're all human. It's possible to relate to anybody.


No it's not. The fact that you think it's obvious only reinforces my point and speaks volumes about the depths of your narcissism and arrogance. No one is discussing "running away". What was being discussed was ignoring a person who will not compromise. So tell me, is it better to be relentlessly submissive to a person who is unwilling to compromise for the sake of "relating to them" which is something you seem to be so obssesed with?


It's better to sit down with the person and tell them everything you resent, and what you don't like about the way the person has been acting. I never said anything about being submissive. Ignoring a person is the same as running away. It's the easy, coward's way out.

I also resent your personal attacks against me.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:29 pm 
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I'm sorry, Foamy/Oonagh. My sister-by-choice is going through this too... and has decided not to leave the little with Grandma ("I'm a teacher! I know how to interact with children!") without her being there because Grandma thinks it's OK to let the kid cry 'so he learns not to expect everything he wants'. I had the same issue with my MIL medicating my son against my instructions. At a certain point all you can do is pull away and present the calm united front of "I'm sorry it's come to this, but we made our wishes clear and you are unwilling to comply".


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:31 pm 
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Stop. Read.

There are people who are my way or the highway. They do not compromise. You do not sit down and talk to them, you do it their way, or you don't.

Your choices are to be submissive and do what they want or ignore them, there is no other choice. You don't have to say anything about submission, it has nothing to do with what you say, which is all you seemed to be concerned with.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Lex, not everything can be reconciled, not all people change, not all endings are happy. Sometimes, its for the best.


This is very true. I too had a messed up relationship with my mother, and went to stay with her for a week on her deathbed. I sat by her side, slept by her side, massaged her feet, gave her her medicine, knelt by the bed and prayed the rosary every day, told her I forgave her, told her I loved her etc.
She managed to say ONE thing to me before she died: "you're sitting on my hose."

Not "I'm sorry" or "I love you" or anything.

I can empathize with Foamy.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:03 pm 
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Foamy:

I can't say I have experience dealing with this, but while the child's grandparents are a consideration, you should rear the child in a manner consisten with your values, not hers. I think you know this.

I hardly ever saw either of my grandparents due to distance, and they all four passed away when I was young. It sounds morbid and terrible, but we were never really that close; it was more painful for my parents than it was for me. What I'm driving at is it is possible to live with very little contact and things to turn out ok.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:59 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
She managed to say ONE thing to me before she died: "you're sitting on my hose."

You're a better person than I. My reply would have been. "Sorry, must have picked the wrong hose; it's not working fast enough."

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:03 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
She managed to say ONE thing to me before she died: "you're sitting on my hose."

You're a better person than I. My reply would have been. "Sorry, must have picked the wrong hose; it's not working fast enough."


hahahaha! Yeah, I was more concerned with her comfort at the time....kind of pissed after the fact that after EVERYTHING that was all she could say to me.

If Foamy's mom is even remotely similiar in any way, then I totally understand the rage and angst.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:07 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Corolinth - Because Foamy still cares about his father. Banishing his mother is effectively banishing his father as well.

You can argue around that one, but one member of a grandparent couple being allowed to come around when the other isn't will only make it tough on, in this case, Grandpa.
Foamy's father is the one person who's in a position to solve this entire issue. In my experience, that is what your father does when your mother is the root of numerous interpersonal problems. He reminds his wife that they are his children and grandchildren, too, and that he would like to continue to see them. If Foamy's father is incapable of doing that, then he's part of the problem.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:37 pm 
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Foamy's dad has since been rendered soulessly compliant.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:33 pm 
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Oonagh posting- TY LEX for wanting to resolve, but you do not know the insanity of his mother. She never feels she has done anything wrong and if she has a confrontation with me it is always my fault. After years of emotional abuse from this woman, Foamy wants to be as far away from her as possible. Resolution went out the window in his teens and now he is 34. She will not take kindly to being accused of all the things she has done and will not speak at all rationally. she actually has some serious medical mental disorders, but they will never be identified because she would never go to a therapist. Resoltuion will never happen the only relief for Foamy and I is complete cutting off of her.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:59 pm 
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*suddenly struck by a great idea*

Hey Lex... why don't you go talk to Foamy's mom and come let us know when you've resolved everything?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:33 pm 
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Restoration should be the goal in any conflict. However yes there is a time and a place where restoration has been lovingly tried (and tried and tried again) and failed, and the only result is a (perhaps temporary, perhaps permanent) setting aside.

I'm not saying you are or are not at this place. If you have repeatedly and progressively tried to lovingly reason with your Mother to no avail then maybe it is possible you've reached this point.

However if you have never had your eye on restoration (again I'm not saying you have or have not) then you need to examine yourself and deal with the problem at hand anew.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:48 pm 
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Fine... I don't know anything... but I will say that my family is super close and it isn't from lack of effort on my part. I don't gossip about them behind their backs... I do it to their faces. There's never any tension because anything we ever want to say to each other is almost immediately said.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:28 am 
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Give your father about three serious psychological conditions and see how it works out then Lex.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:50 am 
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My mother is such a mess psychologically there is just no getting through to her. No matter the facts of the matter, she makes up a reality that coincides with the resolution that she sees fit.

The issue that prompted the OP is as follows:

We don't want the baby sleeping for more than 3 hours at a stretch during the day. Whether we are right or wrong isn't the case here. This is what we heard from the Pediatrician and this is what we are trying to stick to.

I picked him up the other day from my parents and in asking the typical questions, "when did he eat? Did he poop? How long did he sleep?" My mother tells me that he slept for 4 hours straight. With no chip on my shoulder, with no attitude whatsoever, I simply said, "Mom, please don't let him sleep that long during the day." (Mind you that Oonagh is NOT here for this initial confrontation). Immediately Mom's defenses went up and she started questioning me why. I explained my reasons much as I just did above and she chooses to not accept it, instead substituting why she won't do it. "I would never wake a sleeping baby." and "If he's hungry, he'll wake up on his own." I restated my wishes and how this is what Oonagh and I want, left it at that and went along my way.

Fast forward to the weekend. We are out and about and my parents had called me earlier telling me that they wanted to come over and see the baby. Since we were in the vicinity, we decided to just drop by their house with him. This time it is the three of us, myself, Oonagh and Sean. I had already shared my little confrontation with my mother with Oonagh prior to this visit. We were sitting in the living room, the three of us, my mom and my dad and Sean was asleep in his carseat. Normal stilted conversation ensued as I can't stand talking to my mother, my mother doesn't talk to Oonagh and my dad keeps to himself and is afraid to speak up to anyone. Shortly, it moves to the subject of Sean sleeping and again I let my mom know that we don't let him sleep for more than 3 hours straight. Immediately, the defenses go up again and she goes on about how she would never wake a sleeping baby. No matter that he is the most pleasant baby ever and doesn't mind being waked up. We exchange a little and then Oonagh decided to help me by speaking up and saying this is what we want. Right there, my mom decides that Oonagh is "arguing" with her and says "Don't argue with me." There was no argument on either Oonagh's or my part. We were simply stating OUR wishes for OUR child to an unresponsive, defiant grandmother.

We tried telling her that it is what we heard from the Pediatrician and she counters with "Why do you listen to him? You should do what is right for your baby." We try and tell her that we trust the DR. and she counters with "When I had questions, I asked my mother." When I had enough, I made myself clear as crystal that I wasn't going to take dissent, or accept any commentary from her when it comes to what we want for our son. I told her that we are trying to get him into a routine so that he can sleep through a night. She comes back with "He's a baby, not a robot. If he wakes up in the middle of the night, you get up and give him a bottle." I was almost at my end of restating why she's going to do what it is that we ask and she finally says "You're the one who said he's always cranky" and "I raised two children" (My mom yelled at me when I described the baby as "FUSSY".) I had had it, I picked up the baby and we were on our way.

OH!! I almost forgot...my dad sat there the entire time staring at the wall as the "argument" escalated between me and mom. Did he once say, "Um, Lucille. Sean is their child. Why don't you do what they ask?" No he won't speak up and, as Elmo perfectly put it, he is now soullessly compliant. The only thing he chimed in was "Come on now, stop arguing." when the situation was already completely beyond repair.

I made a phone call later that evening to my parents to make something perfectly clear, but first...
Ring, ring, ring...hang up. Ring, ring, ring...hang up. Ring, ring, ring...answering machine.

Mom, dad...I know you were parents, but Sean is our son. Don't question us. Do what we ask and don't give us any commentary on why we are either wrong or you don't want to.

2 days later...Oonagh drops the baby off in the morning. My dad is in the kitchen, they exchange good mornings and mom is yet nowhere to be found. As Oonagh is giving the morning baby report to dad, mom comes STOMPING into the room, (Mom weighs 100 and nothing pounds) with an evil stare on her face and says nothing. Oonagh leaves with nothing else said.

I pick him up later that day and as I walk into the house, it is like nothing ever happened. Mom is happy as a clam playing with the baby and happy to see daddy walking into the house. She gave me the afternoon baby report, I packed him up and made my way out to the car. As I loaded him into the car, my mom suddenly plaintively states "Don't storm out of the house like you did." "Dad and I were so upset" "Don't argue with us where you're here." Obviously, she didn't hear a word of any of what I said. I told her once again that I wasn't arguing with her, only stating what we wanted for Sean and she was the one arguing with us. This is not how she saw it and has now projected the blame on me and by extension, Oonagh. She sees it as resolved with me, but doesn't seem to care about Oonagh.

This morning, Oonagh drops off baby. Dad in kitchen, mom nowhere to be seen. My mom chooses to exclude Oonagh from her little family and it is ripping Oonagh apart because she is a good woman, a wonderful wife to me and she doesn't deserve to be treated like an outcast.

My mom has so many problems and my dad never stepped up to resolve any of them. She gets away with whatever she wants and never holds any blame for doing anything wrong. As of this morning, Oonagh is done with her. No more Thanksgiving dinner with them, Christmas morning, etc...

Frankly, I don't blame her. My mom has never treated Oonagh as she deserves. I will never understand why as she is the one thing in this life that makes her son happiest and this is apparentely all she wants. I will confront her this afternoon when I go to pick up the child and she will deny any wrongdoing, I just know it. In her mind, she has done nothing wrong. She has "reconciled" (so she thinks) with me and that's all that matters. She will continue to treat Oonagh like an outsider, not the mother of her first and only grandchild.

As we don't know how to make our own resolution to this long, ongoing family strife, Oonagh and I are now looking to speak with a family counselor. We need professional help, we are dying a little inside every time we have to deal with my mother and it isn't fair to us.

Sorry for the longness, but I have so much pent up inside about this, I could go on for hours.

F*** you, mom.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:43 am 
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Quote:
Don't argue with us where you're here.


That's a really dumb thing for her to say, and would extremely piss me off as well. I think I would probably argue a lot about not arguing. :P

She also should take care of the baby the way you want, as a term of you letting her have it. This should be obvious for her. Like a contractual agreement. "If you want to take care of our baby, then treat it the way we want".

I agree that you should seek a counselor. It seems there are very basic things about interpersonal relationships that she doesn't understand.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:54 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:

I agree that you should seek a counselor. It seems there are very basic things about interpersonal relationships that she doesn't understand.


The issue is that SHE doesn't think she has a problem... she thinks the problem is that Oonagh and Foamy don't know how to parent and don't respect her experience.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:56 am 
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Taamar wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:

I agree that you should seek a counselor. It seems there are very basic things about interpersonal relationships that she doesn't understand.


The issue is that SHE doesn't think she has a problem... she thinks the problem is that Oonagh and Foamy don't know how to parent and don't respect her experience.


Yes, I now agree that is the biggest issue.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:22 am 
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Taamar wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
I agree that you should seek a counselor. It seems there are very basic things about interpersonal relationships that she doesn't understand.
The issue is that SHE doesn't think she has a problem... she thinks the problem is that Oonagh and Foamy don't know how to parent and don't respect her experience.
The issue is that she's pissed off that Foamy married Oonagh, the vile ***** who poisoned her son and turned him against her. She will never forgive Oonagh for that, and she's even more bitter about it now that Oonagh is the mother of her grandson. Parenting has absolutely nothing to do with it, except that it means Oonagh is harder to get rid of.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:08 am 
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I swear, there is more understanding here from a random group of internet ppls than I get from my own parents.

Lex, Coro, Taamar, you have all hit the nail on the head.

Oonagh called me crying this morning because my mother pulled a vanishing act when the baby was being dropped off once again. Again, my wife is being marginalized by my mother. I was home from work today because I am getting over a head cold/sinus problem. I decided that I would make my stand for good or ill. I called them and told them I am home today and wanted to watch my son today. They realized something was up when I got there and we had it out.

I told them that I have had it with the way that mom treats Oonagh and referenced the two incidents from this very week.

As I expected, my mom denied any wrongdoing. So of course I am left to believe then that Oonagh is making up the emotional scars and tears of mental anguish that my mom's treatment over the past 12 years have caused.

My dad did nothing to mediate, instead backed up my mom and her lie about how she acted on Tuesday and today.

I told them I have had it with them both. I told my dad that he has done nothing to help me heal from the family disaster that has been going on since I was around 13. I hurt so badly inside. I don't want it to be better with them. I want them gone from my life. I hurt so much that I can't ever see resolving things with them. I don't know what it is like to love a parent. I am void of this feeling. The only ones who don't understand this are mom and dad. Their actions have caused me so much anguish and caused too many fights with my wife, one of two people whom I would give my life for. I will not let them hurt me or her any more.

Prior to this decision, to pick up the child and have it out with them, I have made an appointment to see a therapist (Not "The Rapist" :P ). I will be having my first sit down next week on Tuesday. As I was making the appointment and talking to the receptionist, I felt tears welling up (I almost do even as I type this) as I want someone to make this all go away. I want this gone so the hurt isn't inside me and isn't destroying Oonagh anymore. I don't know where else to turn.

Sorry to bother you all with this, but thank you for the understanding ear. Maybe it helps, if only a little.

Scuse me, I am going to go cry a little and hug my son.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:18 am 
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Good for you, Foamy. Sounds like you did exactly what needed to be done by standing up to your parents for not only your wife and son, but yourself as well.
And seeking counseling for your broken heart is a wise move as well.

My heart goes out to you, and I'm not just saying that.
*hugs*

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:19 am 
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You have your own family now Foamy and you owe it to your family to break off an cancerous relationships that may attempt to disease your own family.

Sterilize the situation.

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