The Glade 4.0

This has been covered ad nauseum (did you read the thread?)


Because he didn't have proof (and wasn't smart/dumb enough to conjure some up)?



Ooops? :p

This is what I was thinking.




I could think of lots of political reasons for Bush to have hidden the fact that Osama was dead, especially if reports are true that he died in Dec of 2001.


http://www.gladerebooted.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6131

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

I addressed this in my post. It may be a shitty job of attempting to adhere to it, but it is at least A) a swift burial, which does adhere to Islamic tradition in that respect and B) is an unmarked grave which purportedly is a Wahabbist thing.

It may not be a perfect job of respecting Islamic burial customs but it does at least show some effort to respect them. Some people will be mollified by that, many others won't, although of the latter group a lot wouldn't be mollified by much of anything. It is not a black-and-white matter of "it will help" or "it won't". So no, I do not "know better" because it is a matter of degrees, not "yes/no".

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

See, that makes no sense to me either. We have absolutely no respect for this guy OBL in that we hunt him down like a dog, shoot him in the head, (instead of taking him prisoner or whatever), but suddenly now that he is dead he deserves an immediate and respectful burial at sea?? I can't make that logic fit.

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

Air attacks are notoriously bad at killing specific people on the ground, not to mention leaving evidence behind. How much evidence would there be if he took an 8-lb HEAT warhead or a 1000-lb Tomahawk warhead to the face?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

About the same amount as we have right now?

Ok

1) It may or may not have been physically practicable to take him prisoner.

2) We may have no respect for him, but we also are not in the habit of dragging corpses in the street or hanging them from bridges or otherwise mutilating them

3) It isn't about respect for him. It's about not pointlessly antagonizing muslims in general. A big plank of extremist platforms is that we're somehow "at war with Islam in general". We have it bad enough with idiots like Terry Jones burning Korans. We don't need to disrespect their burial traditions any more than absolutely necessary.

One might argue that it is "necessary" to hang onto his body to deal with the inevitable conspiracy theories; that's probably what I would have done. However, that's a judgement call. Either way has advantages and disadvantages.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Less. We have a DNA sample now from someone purported to be OBL. Last I checked Hellfires and Tomahawks do not send DNA samples or photographs back after hitting a target.

(Yes, you might get some film from a drone launching a Hellfire; it's not likely to be as good as a hand-held camera up close)

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

LOL, but seriously, if you decide you need an individual dead (I know you are debating the need for this, but regardless), you don't drop bombs on them. You could miss, and not know whether or not you got him for a long time.

DE, I agree we don't need to pointlessly antagonize anyone, but I really don't see any reason why a proper religious burial was deserved or could not have waited a couple of days until we got some sort of satisfactory proof other than the word of a handful of people.

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

What's the flight time for a Predator to that area from the nearest base? What's the flight time for a Tomahawk from the nearest ship?

Yes, there's flight times for helicopters too. However, helicopters full of men can change their plans if the situation changes; missiles generally have very few options once fired.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I already answered this once.. here it is again..

So apparently flying Navy Seals into a foreign country without their knowledge or consent, invading his private residence, killing his wife and son, and shooting him in the face, and then flying his dead body off to a US Air Craft Carrier for an 'honorable' burial is going to somehow appease someone?

I'm not buying it.

Lets try this...

Question: Why did U.S. Navy dispose of Osama Bin Laden's corpse in the Arabian Sea?

A) Out of respect for Muslim/Islamic Tradition
B) So as not to incite more anti US sentiment in the Arab/Islamic/Muslim world
C) Because it was a convenient way to hide {insert your favorite theory here}
D) Some of the Above
E) All of the above

Again, deserved has nothing to do with it. OBL is not likely to come back and haunt us if we hadn't done this.

As for the waiting a couple days, you should be able to see why just fine. I just explained it. You, in the position to make a decision, would have held onto the body longer. I would have done the same. However, we were not the ones making the judgement call. I don't agree with it, and you evidently don't either but that does not mean no legitimate reasons exist.

We also do have more than just "the word of a handful of people". We have photographs and DNA samples. Each person can decide for themselves if they're convinced by that or not.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Seriously, we've been over this already (did you read the thread?)

The DNA is meaningless unless someone who isn't implicated witnessed it. Otherwise it's just someone saying there is DNA evidence. this goes back to 'why the rush to dispose of the body'... they could have had a UN or Pakistani observe the DNA testing.... They couldn't wait? Should have easily been doable within the 24 hours....

Same goes for the as yet unreleased photo of a 'unrecognizable body'.

Why not? This isn't Us vs. Them, there are plenty of Muslims that hate both Osama and the US, and are applauding his death even if their hatred of the US prevents them from doing so publicly. However, the same people would also be horribly insulted/offended if we "desecrated" his corpse.



That would honestly depend on what kind of sample it is. I just don't buy that they could have taken a sample three years ago from a corpse, and stored it in a freezer and then not have this noticed by the lab analyzing it.

FarSky,

I've seen several different quotes on the 'no country willing to accept' thing...

The most common ones imply that they didn't *think* they could get a a country to accept his body, but how hard did they try? Anyone verify that any governments were contacted about accepting his body? How long after his death was the body disposed of?

Sorry, I'm not buying it...

[/quote]

And I already answered that once. Yes, it may appease some people becuase there are plenty of people out there that are not fans of Bin Laden, but also are not fans of the U.S. and suspect our motives in regard to Islam.

It's fairly easy for people to grasp that Bin Laden is our enemy and we want to kill him and understand that's the way things go. It's a lot less understandable to blatantly disregard what they see as "proper treatment of a corpse". Like I've pointed out a few times, that's a judgement call. I would say it would have been better judgement to take the risk of pissing off a few extra people and hold the body longer, but I find it absurd to claim it can have no conceiveable benefit whatsoever to do what was done.

Your idea that it "won't appease someone" contains the unspoken assumption that any given person must necessarily be completely ok with everything we did, or opposed to every single bit of it, when there is no reason that must be true.



Let's not. Right now, the only real argument I'm seeing that the burial was for any reason other than the one stated is people's own incredulity.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So NO ONE read the story about the US asking Saudi Arabia (his homeland) to accept and prepare his remains for burial? And their flat-out refusal to do so?

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Would you let the US plant his remains in your backyard? If not, why?

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Yes, we've been over it... and absolutely no good reason why DNA is worthless without a witness who isn't "implicated" has been presented especially since there is no "implication". No deception has been demoonstrated to implicate anyone in. There are reasons to think deception may possily have occured, but that's it.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Newp.. I don't want anything to do with that bastard...

Did they ask Pakistan?

And as far as I know, that is all this conversation is all about. Justifying suspicion.... I've not claimed to have any proof of anything, other than I'm suspicious of just about everything I've heard about this up to this point....

Precisely, and as I just gone done pointing out to LK, we can each make our own assessment of the situation. There is no "smoking gun" either way. All I'm pointing out is that "there is no way they can possibly have thought dumping the body would have any positive political impact" really does not work. I think everyone here would have handled that differently, but its a vast overstatement of the case for suspicion to discount any possible benefit from what was done.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."