The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:37 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 482 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 20  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:53 pm 
Offline
I am here, click me!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 pm
Posts: 3676
I don't have problems with esports as long as things can be balanced. If everyone has the same options available to them(FPS, for example) it isn't a matter of balance, but skill. When you start throwing in classes with different abilities, it becomes increasingly difficult to balance things because not every composition is going to be the same. Which is why WoW arena failed as an eSport. I can't imagine Diablo 3 arena being much different, but at least they won't have to worry about balancing things on the PvE side as well since that side isn't competitive(unlike MMOs where guilds are paid to play and get world firsts for raids).

_________________
Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:56 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Classes don't create variability from player to player. Everyone who plays any RPG has the same options to play and develop whichever class they wish.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:20 pm 
Offline
I am here, click me!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 pm
Posts: 3676
But having those classes play against each other leads to the nerfing/buffing rollercoaster that never gets anything done. Imbalances are always there no matter how hard you try to balance it.

_________________
Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:43 am 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
So what? That doesn't change the fact that everyone has the same option to choose whichever class they want.

Most of the problems in WoW stem from the fact it has a very structured and developed PvE environment where in the abilities do not translate over very well into a PvP environment. But that doesn't refute the idea of RPG PvP in general.

Any PvP team has the option of having whichever classes they want with whatever builds they want on their roster. The environment is flux, but it's equally flux to all teams. The environment doesn't affect one team more than any other team except in the capacity that those teams choose to be affected by the environmental changes i.e. having a more limited and selective roster.

In fact, they could easily have a skill only tournament in the same vein as the IRoC series did in the 80's. Just provide them with some pre-built characters to choose from to go through the tournament.

Neither scenario gives an inherent benefit to any players.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:52 am 
Offline
I am here, click me!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 pm
Posts: 3676
They don't have a choice if they have to pick the OP class to compete or lose a bunch while waiting for the buff/nerf coaster to get to their class of choice. I would agree with you if it was all just for fun. But esports isn't for fun. Those people make money off of it and for some it is their sole source of income. They can't make money if they aren't winning and having to stop playing a class and learn another **** them over even more. That is why you need complete and total balance and why it will never be achieved with a multi-class system like Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft. It seems the only thing Blizzard does know how to balance is Starcraft.

_________________
Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:15 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Strcraft is easier to balance than an MMO or even a short-term MMO like Diablo 1/2/3 because it has a lot fewer "classes" and because each one has a lot fewer factors to balance.

WoW has 10 classes, each with 3 talent trees, plus the issue of gear and the need to balance the classes for PvP, Pve solo, PvE group and PvE raid, and it inherits the class as it stands each expansion, so what was balanced one expansion may **** things all up 5 or 10 levels later.

Starcraft only has to deal with things being balanced for one tech tree for 3 races over the course of a game lasting maybe 2 hours, tops. It's just a lot easier.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:39 am 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Raltar wrote:
They don't have a choice if they have to pick the OP class to compete or lose a bunch while waiting for the buff/nerf coaster to get to their class of choice. I would agree with you if it was all just for fun. But esports isn't for fun. Those people make money off of it and for some it is their sole source of income. They can't make money if they aren't winning and having to stop playing a class and learn another **** them over even more. That is why you need complete and total balance and why it will never be achieved with a multi-class system like Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft. It seems the only thing Blizzard does know how to balance is Starcraft.


You are completely missing the point. Competitive MMO PvP'ers all have the same choice to pick and build the classes best suited to defeat other MMO PvP'ers. Everything you are describing can equally affect all players. All that other gibberish about esports is just an appeal to emotion and isn't germane.

Why would they have to stop and learn another class? A competitive MMO PvP team will have a full roster available of all classes, with redundancy as required, prepared to deal with the flux nature of the MMO environment. In other words, dealing with the changing environment of the MMO would be a concept these teams would have take into consideration when structuring their teams.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:53 am 
Offline
I am here, click me!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 pm
Posts: 3676
I'm assuming Diablo 3 will be a 1v1 type game, not a WoW arena 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 play. Having a roster isn't going to do jack **** when you are the only one on it.

_________________
Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:48 pm
Posts: 753
Location: In some distant part of the Universe
I've seen footage of a 2v2 "arena" type PvP, at least. Not sure about 3v3 or 4v4. But it is a possibility, I'm sure.

And I'm just as sure that ppl will have at least one of each class ready to go for PvP, depending on the matchup.

_________________
"I Live, I Love, I Slay, and I Am Content."
- Conan the Barbarian


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:47 am 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
If gamers really wanted a balanced game, they'd be playing chess.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:08 am
Posts: 6465
Location: The Lab
Corolinth wrote:
If gamers really wanted a balanced game, they'd be playing chess.


RACIST!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:09 pm
Posts: 782
Corolinth wrote:
If gamers really wanted a balanced game, they'd be playing chess.


Queens are OP and will be nerfed

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:42 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Caleria wrote:
I've seen footage of a 2v2 "arena" type PvP, at least. Not sure about 3v3 or 4v4. But it is a possibility, I'm sure.

And I'm just as sure that ppl will have at least one of each class ready to go for PvP, depending on the matchup.


See, was it really that difficult to understand?

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:04 pm 
Offline
I am here, click me!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 pm
Posts: 3676
And I say you can't be taken seriously unless all comps are viable. Which is why Diablo 3 esport will fail just like WoW arena failed.

_________________
Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:41 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Yes, you've already made it quite clear that you believe that to be the case.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Diablo 3
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:26 am 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
WoW Arenas are represented in MLG and WCG tournaments ...

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:48 am 
Offline
I am here, click me!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 pm
Posts: 3676
They were, but not anymore. Because Blizzard doesn't know how to balance them.

_________________
Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Diablo 3
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:22 am
Posts: 385
Last I'd heard, MLG just dropped WoW this year, followed by WCG picking it up as a new game for 2011.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:39 pm 
Offline
I got nothin.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:15 pm
Posts: 11160
Location: Arafys, AKA El Müso Guapo!
/sigh

_________________
Image
Holy shitsnacks!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
The morning brings a trio of horror-news about Diablo III. I’m outright bewildered about what Blizzard have done, and shuddering about the likely reaction in comments. I won’t muck around here, and instead shall just wade straight into the things that are probably going to end up being PC gaming’s biggest controversy of 2011.

1) The game requires a constant internet connection. It cannot be played offline.
2) Mods are “expressly prohibited.”
3) Items in the auction house are bought and sold for real-life money.

Uh-oh.

When my future children ask me “where were you when the war began, Daddy?” I’ll think of this day. And I’ll say “well, sweetling, I was drinking a cup of instant coffee, sat in my dressing gown in front of my PC, same as every morning. But on this particular morning, I don’t mind telling you, I sprayed that coffee all over my monitor and had to fight the urge to leave the internet for a least a month. For I knew what was coming, child. I knew. Every day since, I thank every god I can think of that we’re somehow still alive, that the Earth somehow still turns.”

All of news this via PC Gamer (who’ve been to see Blizzard recently), here, here and here.

In order, here’s Blizzard’s justifications:

1) “One of the things that we felt was really important was that if you did play offline, if we allowed for that experience, you’d start a character, you’d get him all the way to level 20 or level 30 or level 40 or what have you, and then at that point you might decide to want to venture onto Battle.net. But you’d have to start a character from scratch, because there’d be no way for us to guarantee no cheats were involved, if we let you play on the client and then take that character online.” Also, piracy.

2) “For a variety of gameplay and security reasons, we will not be supporting bots or mods in Diablo III, and they’ll be expressly prohibited by our terms of use for the game.”

3) “We think it’s really going to add a lot of depth to the game. If I have more money than time I can purchase items, or if I’m leet in the game I can get benefits out of it. The players really want it. This is something that we know people are going to do either way. We can provide them a really safe, awesome, fun experience, or they’ll find ways of doing it elsewhere.” Blizzard will take a small cut, but they’re not expecting to make too much of a profit out of it themselves. They also say there’ll be level caps on items, so you can’t immediately shortcut to a high-level sword with a level-1 character, not matter how rich you are, plus there will also be an additional auction house that uses in-game gold. So this element of the game can, at least, be dodged entirely.

As for the online requirement and the mod-blocking? That’s just desperately sad. The DRM was at least in StarCraft II, so it’s not too much of a shock, but given Blizzard’s rich history of allowing user modification, and just how much it’s given to so many of their previous games, it’s hard to not feel let down by the decision to outright ban Diablo 3 modding. Let’s hope they have a change of heart on that point particularly.

Heh. Didn't see #3 coming.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:00 am 
Offline
Near Ground
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 6782
Location: Chattanooga, TN
I don't care about 2 and 3. Fine, sure, whatever.

#1 is **** ridiculous.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Diablo 3
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:06 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
I find #3 rather alarming, especially if they're allowing people under 18 to play in the EULA (Yes, I know people under 18 would play regardless). I also, frankly, don't think they should be condoning the stratification of players based on real-life economic means.

#1 is silly. Ok, so you have to start a new character to play online.

#2 I'm very much in favor of.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Diablo 3
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm
Posts: 2315
#3 is to take out the inevitable black market service at the kneecaps and prevent them from having to field ten thousand calls every day and having to track down and do restorations for people who bought gold or items and then had their accounts stolen. I'd rather Blizzard be the ones to get the cut of those profits rather than black market unnaccountable parties who have been shown to immediately try to steal back anything they have sold you as soon as it's in your hands.

I'm not sure why the constant Internet connection annoys so many people. Nobody minds when games contact a central server to authorize every time they're started, like Steam does, but somehow the constant connection thing makes it so much worse?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:40 am 
Offline
Near Ground
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 6782
Location: Chattanooga, TN
You can still play Steam games offline in a pinch...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:43 am 
Offline
I am here, click me!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 pm
Posts: 3676
3 is stupid. But 1 and 2 are perfectly fine. I'm never not connected to the internet anyway.

_________________
Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 482 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 20  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 122 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group