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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:53 pm 
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I don't have problems with esports as long as things can be balanced. If everyone has the same options available to them(FPS, for example) it isn't a matter of balance, but skill. When you start throwing in classes with different abilities, it becomes increasingly difficult to balance things because not every composition is going to be the same. Which is why WoW arena failed as an eSport. I can't imagine Diablo 3 arena being much different, but at least they won't have to worry about balancing things on the PvE side as well since that side isn't competitive(unlike MMOs where guilds are paid to play and get world firsts for raids).

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Classes don't create variability from player to player. Everyone who plays any RPG has the same options to play and develop whichever class they wish.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:20 pm 
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But having those classes play against each other leads to the nerfing/buffing rollercoaster that never gets anything done. Imbalances are always there no matter how hard you try to balance it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:43 am 
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So what? That doesn't change the fact that everyone has the same option to choose whichever class they want.

Most of the problems in WoW stem from the fact it has a very structured and developed PvE environment where in the abilities do not translate over very well into a PvP environment. But that doesn't refute the idea of RPG PvP in general.

Any PvP team has the option of having whichever classes they want with whatever builds they want on their roster. The environment is flux, but it's equally flux to all teams. The environment doesn't affect one team more than any other team except in the capacity that those teams choose to be affected by the environmental changes i.e. having a more limited and selective roster.

In fact, they could easily have a skill only tournament in the same vein as the IRoC series did in the 80's. Just provide them with some pre-built characters to choose from to go through the tournament.

Neither scenario gives an inherent benefit to any players.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:52 am 
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They don't have a choice if they have to pick the OP class to compete or lose a bunch while waiting for the buff/nerf coaster to get to their class of choice. I would agree with you if it was all just for fun. But esports isn't for fun. Those people make money off of it and for some it is their sole source of income. They can't make money if they aren't winning and having to stop playing a class and learn another **** them over even more. That is why you need complete and total balance and why it will never be achieved with a multi-class system like Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft. It seems the only thing Blizzard does know how to balance is Starcraft.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:15 pm 
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Strcraft is easier to balance than an MMO or even a short-term MMO like Diablo 1/2/3 because it has a lot fewer "classes" and because each one has a lot fewer factors to balance.

WoW has 10 classes, each with 3 talent trees, plus the issue of gear and the need to balance the classes for PvP, Pve solo, PvE group and PvE raid, and it inherits the class as it stands each expansion, so what was balanced one expansion may **** things all up 5 or 10 levels later.

Starcraft only has to deal with things being balanced for one tech tree for 3 races over the course of a game lasting maybe 2 hours, tops. It's just a lot easier.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:39 am 
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Raltar wrote:
They don't have a choice if they have to pick the OP class to compete or lose a bunch while waiting for the buff/nerf coaster to get to their class of choice. I would agree with you if it was all just for fun. But esports isn't for fun. Those people make money off of it and for some it is their sole source of income. They can't make money if they aren't winning and having to stop playing a class and learn another **** them over even more. That is why you need complete and total balance and why it will never be achieved with a multi-class system like Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft. It seems the only thing Blizzard does know how to balance is Starcraft.


You are completely missing the point. Competitive MMO PvP'ers all have the same choice to pick and build the classes best suited to defeat other MMO PvP'ers. Everything you are describing can equally affect all players. All that other gibberish about esports is just an appeal to emotion and isn't germane.

Why would they have to stop and learn another class? A competitive MMO PvP team will have a full roster available of all classes, with redundancy as required, prepared to deal with the flux nature of the MMO environment. In other words, dealing with the changing environment of the MMO would be a concept these teams would have take into consideration when structuring their teams.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:53 am 
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I'm assuming Diablo 3 will be a 1v1 type game, not a WoW arena 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 play. Having a roster isn't going to do jack **** when you are the only one on it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:08 am 
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I've seen footage of a 2v2 "arena" type PvP, at least. Not sure about 3v3 or 4v4. But it is a possibility, I'm sure.

And I'm just as sure that ppl will have at least one of each class ready to go for PvP, depending on the matchup.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:47 am 
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If gamers really wanted a balanced game, they'd be playing chess.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:01 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
If gamers really wanted a balanced game, they'd be playing chess.


RACIST!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
If gamers really wanted a balanced game, they'd be playing chess.


Queens are OP and will be nerfed

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:42 pm 
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Caleria wrote:
I've seen footage of a 2v2 "arena" type PvP, at least. Not sure about 3v3 or 4v4. But it is a possibility, I'm sure.

And I'm just as sure that ppl will have at least one of each class ready to go for PvP, depending on the matchup.


See, was it really that difficult to understand?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:04 pm 
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And I say you can't be taken seriously unless all comps are viable. Which is why Diablo 3 esport will fail just like WoW arena failed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:41 pm 
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Yes, you've already made it quite clear that you believe that to be the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Diablo 3
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:26 am 
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WoW Arenas are represented in MLG and WCG tournaments ...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:48 am 
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They were, but not anymore. Because Blizzard doesn't know how to balance them.

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 Post subject: Re: Diablo 3
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:59 am 
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Last I'd heard, MLG just dropped WoW this year, followed by WCG picking it up as a new game for 2011.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:45 am 
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The morning brings a trio of horror-news about Diablo III. I’m outright bewildered about what Blizzard have done, and shuddering about the likely reaction in comments. I won’t muck around here, and instead shall just wade straight into the things that are probably going to end up being PC gaming’s biggest controversy of 2011.

1) The game requires a constant internet connection. It cannot be played offline.
2) Mods are “expressly prohibited.”
3) Items in the auction house are bought and sold for real-life money.

Uh-oh.

When my future children ask me “where were you when the war began, Daddy?” I’ll think of this day. And I’ll say “well, sweetling, I was drinking a cup of instant coffee, sat in my dressing gown in front of my PC, same as every morning. But on this particular morning, I don’t mind telling you, I sprayed that coffee all over my monitor and had to fight the urge to leave the internet for a least a month. For I knew what was coming, child. I knew. Every day since, I thank every god I can think of that we’re somehow still alive, that the Earth somehow still turns.”

All of news this via PC Gamer (who’ve been to see Blizzard recently), here, here and here.

In order, here’s Blizzard’s justifications:

1) “One of the things that we felt was really important was that if you did play offline, if we allowed for that experience, you’d start a character, you’d get him all the way to level 20 or level 30 or level 40 or what have you, and then at that point you might decide to want to venture onto Battle.net. But you’d have to start a character from scratch, because there’d be no way for us to guarantee no cheats were involved, if we let you play on the client and then take that character online.” Also, piracy.

2) “For a variety of gameplay and security reasons, we will not be supporting bots or mods in Diablo III, and they’ll be expressly prohibited by our terms of use for the game.”

3) “We think it’s really going to add a lot of depth to the game. If I have more money than time I can purchase items, or if I’m leet in the game I can get benefits out of it. The players really want it. This is something that we know people are going to do either way. We can provide them a really safe, awesome, fun experience, or they’ll find ways of doing it elsewhere.” Blizzard will take a small cut, but they’re not expecting to make too much of a profit out of it themselves. They also say there’ll be level caps on items, so you can’t immediately shortcut to a high-level sword with a level-1 character, not matter how rich you are, plus there will also be an additional auction house that uses in-game gold. So this element of the game can, at least, be dodged entirely.

As for the online requirement and the mod-blocking? That’s just desperately sad. The DRM was at least in StarCraft II, so it’s not too much of a shock, but given Blizzard’s rich history of allowing user modification, and just how much it’s given to so many of their previous games, it’s hard to not feel let down by the decision to outright ban Diablo 3 modding. Let’s hope they have a change of heart on that point particularly.

Heh. Didn't see #3 coming.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:00 am 
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I don't care about 2 and 3. Fine, sure, whatever.

#1 is **** ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Diablo 3
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:06 am 
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I find #3 rather alarming, especially if they're allowing people under 18 to play in the EULA (Yes, I know people under 18 would play regardless). I also, frankly, don't think they should be condoning the stratification of players based on real-life economic means.

#1 is silly. Ok, so you have to start a new character to play online.

#2 I'm very much in favor of.

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 Post subject: Re: Diablo 3
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:15 am 
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#3 is to take out the inevitable black market service at the kneecaps and prevent them from having to field ten thousand calls every day and having to track down and do restorations for people who bought gold or items and then had their accounts stolen. I'd rather Blizzard be the ones to get the cut of those profits rather than black market unnaccountable parties who have been shown to immediately try to steal back anything they have sold you as soon as it's in your hands.

I'm not sure why the constant Internet connection annoys so many people. Nobody minds when games contact a central server to authorize every time they're started, like Steam does, but somehow the constant connection thing makes it so much worse?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:40 am 
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You can still play Steam games offline in a pinch...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:43 am 
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3 is stupid. But 1 and 2 are perfectly fine. I'm never not connected to the internet anyway.

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