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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:44 pm 
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http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/26/je ... ?hpt=hp_t2

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If you're charged with a nonviolent crime in one Alabama town, you might just have the chance to pray it all away.

Starting this week, under a new program called Operation ROC (Restore Our Community), local judges in Bay Minette, Alabama, will give those found guilty of misdemeanors the choice of serving out their time in jail, paying a fine or attending church each Sunday for a year.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:53 pm 
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:thumbs: I approve.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Wonder if it matters what religion you pick? Are there any buddhist temples in Alabama? That might be interesting.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:17 pm 
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I love to see more flexibility in sentencing. That said, queue the separationists.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:17 pm 
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You can pick any religion you like, as long as it's Southern Baptist.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:37 pm 
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So I wonder, since there are no mosques or synagogues locally, if you can drive to another town to perform your weekly religious service if you're Muslim or Jewish....

I like the idea behind it, but it seems really single-minded. I would personally think extending the "options" to include weekly therapy/counseling sessions for a year would be a good thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:39 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
You can pick any religion you like, as long as it's Southern Baptist.


I don't think so...I believe you get to pick your church as long as the pastor cooperates with your probation officer or whomever.

And for the seperationists....they are given THREE options: jailtime, fines, or church. Most normal situations don't offer an option at all and if they do it's either go to jail or fork over the cash.
No one is forcing anyone to go to church, they're just adding that as an option, which I think is pretty nice.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:53 pm 
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An option that's much "easier" than the other two, and is only available for those of a specific subset of religious beliefs.

In other words, it's an example of positive discrimination. There are only Christian churches in the town. For those who are Christian, they can go to church for a year, and don't have to go to jail or pay a fine. People with other religious beliefs can't.

Are you really going to argue that going to church for a year is an equivalent option to a fine or jail time?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:57 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
An option that's much "easier" than the other two, and is only available for those of a specific subset of religious beliefs.

In other words, it's an example of positive discrimination. There are only Christian churches in the town. For those who are Christian, they can go to church for a year, and don't have to go to jail or pay a fine. People with other religious beliefs can't.

Are you really going to argue that going to church for a year is an equivalent option to a fine or jail time?


The church attendance option is available to everyone, and doesn't exclude people who aren't already members of a congregation. Anyone can take advantage of this.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:02 pm 
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Does your PO drop you off?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:14 pm 
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Hmm, I must've misread something... I thought there was more to it than just "going" to church...

::edit::

Ah! here's where I got that idea.

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Rowland said the idea was simple: get people who are not yet hardened criminals to become involved in positive programs — hundreds of free resources offered by some 104 churches in the region with 56 agreeing to help monitor first-time, nonviolent offenders. Under the program, pastors would report weekly to the chief and offenders in the program would bring a signed sheet to prove they attended church.

They would also have to answer some questions about the services, Rowland said. And the offenders who voluntarily choose church over jail get to pick the churches they attend. If they complete a year’s attendance, Rowland said, their criminal case would be dismissed.

Rowland said the goal is to produce "productive citizens."

Some critics say the program definitely crosses the line between church and state, with some minority religious groups shut out of participation because few mosques or synagogues exist in the area. And atheists would have no option, Rowland said, but to pick another alternative sentencing program.


Seems a bit more than "you can just pick any church and attend", but more "you have to meet regularly with the pastor and talk about the sermons". The line (bolded) from the police chief also seems to imply that in his opinion, Aethiests couldn't simply attend, but would have to pick jail/fines.

The earlier portion seems to imply that while you can choose a church, you can't choose *any* church, but rather one of the 56 churches who have agreed to work with the police.

I'd have to wait for more details to surface, but if I'm reading correctly from the article, it's not as open as "any church, and anyone can just go".

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:28 pm 
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Atheists are not incapable of speaking with a pastor about a sermon. Nothing forbids them from having an intellectual debate abou their belief relative to what the pastor says.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:35 pm 
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Tangu Matraa wrote:
Atheists are not incapable of speaking with a pastor about a sermon. Nothing forbids them from having an intellectual debate abou their belief relative to what the pastor says.


Yet according to the creator of the program, Cheif Rowland:

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And atheists would have no option, Rowland said, but to pick another alternative sentencing program.


Which seems like he considers them unable of completing the requirements.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:37 pm 
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We don't want to put every first time dope smoker and shoplifter in the pokey. Rather we cant afford it. Yet we can't let them go unpunished. So I applaud their attempt, even if the implementation is a bit unsteady.

If it really is any church as long as it's Southern Baptist, then that's wrong. If other entities have the ability to put in, then it's different. Lack of an organization to participate in isn't discriminatory. If mosques and Jewish temples are wanting and unable to participate that's discrimination. Atheists can choose to go and if a non-theistic organization wanted to offer a program, they should be allowed to as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:43 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
Tangu Matraa wrote:
Atheists are not incapable of speaking with a pastor about a sermon. Nothing forbids them from having an intellectual debate abou their belief relative to what the pastor says.


Yet according to the creator of the program, Cheif Rowland:

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And atheists would have no option, Rowland said, but to pick another alternative sentencing program.


Which seems like he considers them unable of completing the requirements.

I think you're mistaking the Chief's statement. I read it more as "atheists [who would likely object to the notion of attending a church], would have no option [given their objection] but to pick another alternative sentencing program."

There's nothing to stop atheists from participating, but they can't use their atheism to justify substituting weekly chats with Richard Dawkins for church attendance and chats with the pastors.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:46 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
We don't want to put every first time dope smoker and shoplifter in the pokey. Rather we cant afford it. Yet we can't let them go unpunished. So I applaud their attempt, even if the implementation is a bit unsteady.

If it really is any church as long as it's Southern Baptist, then that's wrong. If other entities have the ability to put in, then it's different. Lack of an organization to participate in isn't discriminatory. If mosques and Jewish temples are wanting and unable to participate that's discrimination. Atheists can choose to go and if a non-theistic organization wanted to offer a program, they should be allowed to as well.


Hence my point about having to see how it develops.

Currently, the only choices are the 56 christian churches which have signed on. Time will show whether that's due to other organizations either being blocked, or not being interested.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:52 pm 
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One point: they're basically saying going to church is a punishment equal to having to spend time in prison. :P


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:07 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
One point: they're basically saying going to church is a punishment equal to having to spend time in prison. :P


I love my father dearly, and he's even an amusing public speaker, but I have to say, as a kid, I would have happily paid a fine or a few days in jail to get out of his sermons for a year.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:34 pm 
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Wait. so your choices are submit to punishment or submit to indoctrination to a private entity?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:45 pm 
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I see more as go to jail like everyone else (on the taxpayers dime) or try to improve yourself on an outpatient basis(with private organizations willing to fund the bill). It sounds like they aren't being graded on whether or not they buy it. Like I said, I think it'd be best to include non-theistic organizations as options as well. They'd have to be able to offer programs of a similar difficulty. I mean going through a year of Reformers Unanimous or a similar aggressive life changing program like it, not just a month of AA, would probably do the person and society by extension a lot more good then being locked in a cell around hardened criminals.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:02 pm 
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my concern... it says people found guilty of a misdemeanor (non violent), so Jay walkers, parking ticket people, etc.

And I will follow it up with.... **** the Alabama government. I would take jail time, and I am not an atheist.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:05 pm 
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most of those traffic like offenses are probably better off paying the fines. Most people don't go to jail for those. more like shop lifting and substance abuse. Then again i'm not exactly sure on the implementation.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:06 pm 
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It might be more interesting for certain felonies.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:31 pm 
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I'd take the jail time.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:39 pm 
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So your options are jail time, monetary fines, or church attendance? I wonder what Thomas Jefferson would have to say about that?

Oh there you are, legal precedent!

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