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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:10 pm 
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:shock: wow, Pc's that bad over there now? :?

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And depending on the one you choose to arrest... they might *like* it.


well we DO have a police/fireman/ambo float every year. Uniforms... Hot!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:19 pm 
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No anything eXtreme was allowed during the X-Games something or other when all of Congress got free sky-surfing and Judo-Skiing lessons.

I think it was "The Industry stimulation (to the Extreme) of 2005".

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
Of course not. I'm simply pointing out that, just as when an individual sins there are consequences involved (Tiger Woods troubles ring any bells, for instance?), when a nation accepts sin as a normality, there are consequences involved. Jeremiah's warnings were of imminent judgement. I simply say, "We have Scriptural examples of what can happen to a nation that wanders down it's own path in defiance of God, and it's not wise for us to put ourselves at such a risk."

If that's the path the nation ultimately chooses to follow, so be it. I call it foolish.


By that logic, the entire world should be going straight down the shitter, since practically every nation is neck-deep in some kind of sin or other, including those that seem innocent but want to self-righteously lecture the others.

God stopped holding nations responsible for sin after Christ. Yes, I know its the same God. The change in methodology was all part of the plan from the beginning. Nations, ultimately, do not have souls. God is relatively unconcerned with them.


Not so. Was Babylon less sinful than Israel in the days of Jeremiah and Isaiah? Not likely, yet God allowed Babylon to prosper so He could use them as an instrument in His hands. Just because God does not punish every nation the same way at the same time, does not mean God is not working to implement His will.

You think what's happening in the nation today exists in a vacuum? A man I respect greatly said in Bible study on Sunday morning several years ago that he believed the U.S. is not mentioned in Rev. because we'll no longer have the financial ability to be a player in the Middle East at the time of Armeggedon. Several years ago he said it, and look at what's happening now.

I do not believe that we've gotten the Presidents and Congresses we've had over the last few decades by some coincidence. To paraphrase the same man I mentioned: "As our national sin has grown (the 60's, the sexual revolution, and Roe-v-Wade being examples of this), so also God has removed His hand of protection over our nation." We are reaping what we've sown, and people want more of the same.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:42 pm 
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To paraphrase me, only not so much ...

God is not here. God does not intervene. He watches and waits. The New Covenant is such that Christ asked God to give humanity a chance to do this the right way on their own. It is not Judgment Day. It is not the Sundering. God is not here.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:07 pm 
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Khross wrote:
To paraphrase me, only not so much ...

God is not here. God does not intervene. He watches and waits. The New Covenant is such that Christ asked God to give humanity a chance to do this the right way on their own. It is not Judgment Day. It is not the Sundering. God is not here.


And if you choose to believe that, it's your choice. Personally, I believe that the best analogy I can think of is a great dam; one small leak here, another there, yet another, each alone hardly noticable, then suddenly the dam will give way and no one will live as they once did. I could be wrong, because I don't believe it's too late. But I also believe that America does not have the will to reverse it. The will to reverse it will not come from gov't, if it comes at all. It will have to come from the people.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Beryllin wrote:
I don't want legislation criminalizing anything of the sort. I'm not arguing to criminalize homosexuality. My point is that God established marriage as between a man and a woman, and man should not re-define marriage in defiance of what God established.

Okay. But that raises a question -- if God defines what marriage is, then what business does the government have in defining it at all? Isn't that superfluous at best, and presumptuous at worst?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:13 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
Actually, I think it's more accurate to say people don't care. Straight people who don't give a damn about gay marriage one way or the other would be happy to allow them to get married, but can't be bothered to get off our asses and vote (we don't have a horse in this race, after all). Meanwhile, the religious whackjobs crusading against faggotry represent a large enough voting block that the Republicans keep trying to pander to them.


November 2008. California (liberal state). Amendment banning gay marriage passed. Voter turnout: 13.7 million voters, 79.4% of the registered voter population.

It's a little disingenuous to correlate the high voter turnout specifically with gay marriage, when there was another big vote going on at the same time. Polling at the time showed that 70% of black voters were voting for Prop 8, while whites and latinos were pretty much evenly split.

Thankfully, 66% of people under 30 were shown to vote in favor of gay marriage. That's a heartening statistic that makes me optimistic for our future.


Uh, yeah, no kidding. That's kinda irrelevant to my point. My point was, massive turnout, and ban on gay marriage. I agree that most people won't get off their *** for a vote, but when something else gets them to the polls, they don't want it.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Those that say marriage has nothing to do with religion are being purposefully naive.

Oh, and on the gay pride event thing, I will never, ever, attend an AIDS rally.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:24 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
I don't want legislation criminalizing anything of the sort. I'm not arguing to criminalize homosexuality. My point is that God established marriage as between a man and a woman, and man should not re-define marriage in defiance of what God established.

Okay. But that raises a question -- if God defines what marriage is, then what business does the government have in defining it at all? Isn't that superfluous at best, and presumptuous at worst?


Because at some point the powers-that-be realized that marriage is a contributor to stable society, which is beneficial to the nation. Somewhere along the road, we've forgotten that, with liberal divorce laws and such. Just as God established marriage, He also states clearly, "I hate divorce."

More and more, we see people living together without benefit of marriage; it has little value. We slaughter our unborn by the millions; life has little value. Muggers punch 100 year old ladies in the face for a few dollars. Government takes from the productive so they can buy votes from the unproductive. I could go on and on, each part being one more leak in the dam. Each leak hardly noticed, applauded in some circles, yet each one contributing to the demise of the dam.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:37 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
Of course not. I'm simply pointing out that, just as when an individual sins there are consequences involved (Tiger Woods troubles ring any bells, for instance?), when a nation accepts sin as a normality, there are consequences involved. Jeremiah's warnings were of imminent judgement. I simply say, "We have Scriptural examples of what can happen to a nation that wanders down it's own path in defiance of God, and it's not wise for us to put ourselves at such a risk."

If that's the path the nation ultimately chooses to follow, so be it. I call it foolish.


By that logic, the entire world should be going straight down the shitter, since practically every nation is neck-deep in some kind of sin or other, including those that seem innocent but want to self-righteously lecture the others.

God stopped holding nations responsible for sin after Christ. Yes, I know its the same God. The change in methodology was all part of the plan from the beginning. Nations, ultimately, do not have souls. God is relatively unconcerned with them.


And even though I responded to this in a different way a few posts ago, I would be remiss if I failed to mention that according to Revelation, all the nations do end up in the crapper in the Tribulation.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:17 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
By that logic, the entire world should be going straight down the shitter, since practically every nation is neck-deep in some kind of sin or other, including those that seem innocent but want to self-righteously lecture the others.

God stopped holding nations responsible for sin after Christ. Yes, I know its the same God. The change in methodology was all part of the plan from the beginning. Nations, ultimately, do not have souls. God is relatively unconcerned with them.


Not so. Was Babylon less sinful than Israel in the days of Jeremiah and Isaiah? Not likely, yet God allowed Babylon to prosper so He could use them as an instrument in His hands. Just because God does not punish every nation the same way at the same time, does not mean God is not working to implement His will.


Yes, it is so. We are not in that era anymore. You keep assuming that God is working His will in the same way as He did in the Old Testament, when He quite clearly planned all along to abandon the "chosen people" method and open things up to everyone. God abandoned concern for nations with Christ. That was the will he was working to implement throughout all that OT stuff you're talking about. That's all done now.

Back then He sent prophets with warnings to one specific nation and the actions he took were in terms of that nation. There are no prophets now, and that nation exists only as a scattered people and a namesake nation on roughly similar land. The OT times are over; God is at a different point in His plan.

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You think what's happening in the nation today exists in a vacuum? A man I respect greatly said in Bible study on Sunday morning several years ago that he believed the U.S. is not mentioned in Rev. because we'll no longer have the financial ability to be a player in the Middle East at the time of Armeggedon. Several years ago he said it, and look at what's happening now.


This is a guy you respect greatly? Aside from the fact that by trying to tie our current financial situation to the end times you're forgetting that no one knows the day or hour but the father, the vast majority of nations are not mentioned in Revelation either. Where are Britain, France,Germany, Japan, Russia, China, South Korea, Argentina, Mexico, Iceland, Canada, Australia?

Obviously it must be for something other than his aility to read and understand Scripture that you respect him because that claim is asinine. Not only that but it's irrelevant to my point that all nations are sinful and so therefore all should be failing. You might respond that that's why none are mentioned in Revelation, but there's no particular reason to think that's the case either.

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I do not believe that we've gotten the Presidents and Congresses we've had over the last few decades by some coincidence. To paraphrase the same man I mentioned: "As our national sin has grown (the 60's, the sexual revolution, and Roe-v-Wade being examples of this), so also God has removed His hand of protection over our nation." We are reaping what we've sown, and people want more of the same.


When was the hand of God's protection over our nation and how has it been removed? This man apparently is simply viewing the past as some rose-colored fantasy. Is he not aware of how Indians were treated? Slavery? The treatment of workers during the Industrial Revolution?

This nation is no better and no worse than any other. Claiming that "sinful nations get punished" is silly; all it does is result in these claims where any negative cycle is seen as a sign of the end times or punishment, or the removal of a "Hand of Protection" or whatever. People, and therefore nations, are always sinful. There's little reason to think God spends His time meting out punishments and blessings as if He were Santa Claus; even the punishments you cite were really just to bring about the situation for Christ to appear and to make it clear why He was needed.

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And even though I responded to this in a different way a few posts ago, I would be remiss if I failed to mention that according to Revelation, all the nations do end up in the crapper in the Tribulation.


Well, duh. What need will there be for them after that?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:29 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
There's little reason to think God spends His time meting out punishments and blessings as if He were Santa Claus.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:43 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Those that say marriage has nothing to do with religion are being purposefully naive.
Did marriage exist before organized religion?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:03 am 
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Since we have OT examples of God punishing nations, and NT predictions of nations being punished, I advise we err (if we must err) on the side of caution. Why go out of our way to tempt God?

Psalm 2:
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"Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take council together against the Lord and His Anointed, saying, "Let us break Their bonds in pieces, and cast away Their cords from us."

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath and distress them in His deep displeasure: "Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion."

I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, "You are My Son, today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel."

Now therefore be wise, O kings; be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry and you perish in the way when His wrath is kindled but a little.

Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.


You really want to tempt God? Be my guest, if you're that foolish. "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' "


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:00 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Lydiaa wrote:
dont you guys have laws prohibiting public display of … er.. extreme affection?

Yes. But I'm guessing nobody would enforce it in this case -- are you going to march up to the parade full of gays and handcuff the perps? That's screaming for a riot, and you get to be the homophobe of the week on national TV.


First of all, where is the proof that this happened at all? Second of all, do you really want to imply that gays are just a giant fountain of rage waiting to explode in riot if alleged gay men are arrested for allegedly having sex in public?

OH NOS!!!!! SEX!!!! WITH MENS!!! ARRRRGHH!!!! If we don't stop the homosexuals, it'll be nothing but wall-to-wall mano y mono sexcapades from here till judgement day! Leather futures will go through the roof! Matching curtain sets will be flung from IKEAs everywhere! It'll be paaaaaandemonium!!! But Gay!!!

Edit - Aaaaaaand Bery with the dire warnings that god will spank us for establishing marriage equality. Thank you for the warning, I'll take my chances.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:20 am 
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Monte wrote:
Edit - Aaaaaaand Bery with the dire warnings that god will spank us for establishing marriage equality. Thank you for the warning, I'll take my chances.


Which would be fine, if it were really a case of "I'll take my chances". But it's not; you're willing to put 200+ million people in that position, including me and my family. Therefore I stand opposed, and will remain so.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:21 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
Monte wrote:
Edit - Aaaaaaand Bery with the dire warnings that god will spank us for establishing marriage equality. Thank you for the warning, I'll take my chances.


Which would be fine, if it were really a case of "I'll take my chances". But it's not; you're willing to put 200+ million people in that position, including me and my family. Therefore I stand opposed, and will remain so.


So wait. If I sin, you and your family is punished as well?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:26 am 
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Monte wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Lydiaa wrote:
dont you guys have laws prohibiting public display of … er.. extreme affection?

Yes. But I'm guessing nobody would enforce it in this case -- are you going to march up to the parade full of gays and handcuff the perps? That's screaming for a riot, and you get to be the homophobe of the week on national TV.


First of all, where is the proof that this happened at all? Second of all, do you really want to imply that gays are just a giant fountain of rage waiting to explode in riot if alleged gay men are arrested for allegedly having sex in public?

OH NOS!!!!! SEX!!!! WITH MENS!!! ARRRRGHH!!!! If we don't stop the homosexuals, it'll be nothing but wall-to-wall mano y mono sexcapades from here till judgement day! Leather futures will go through the roof! Matching curtain sets will be flung from IKEAs everywhere! It'll be paaaaaandemonium!!! But Gay!!!



No one is saying gay people are a frothing fountain of rage. What's being implied is those who over-zealously champion the "rights" of gays (whatever that means, since gay people are also people, there's no such thing as "gay rights" anymore than there is "black rights" or "disabled rights") react with pre-emptive anger, name-calling, finger-pointing and howling.

And look what you did you your second paragraph there. Wow, what a fine example. It's like you are trying to prove his point for him.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:28 am 
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Monte wrote:
First of all, where is the proof that this happened at all?


Screeling says he saw photos of the event. So are you saying that Screeling is lying, or are you saying that the photos are fake? What reasoning do you have for this assertion?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:56 am 
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Aizle wrote:
So wait. If I sin, you and your family is punished as well?


Of course not. I'm looking at Biblical precedent. Israel sinned, Israel was punished. The people who were citizens of Israel at that time all took the fall. There were undoubtedly folks who were right with God who were spared the worse of it, but even then, life for them was radically different than they were used to: captive in Babylon, or fleeing to Egypt. No one in Israel came out of that experience unaffected.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:21 pm 
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Mookhow wrote:
Monte wrote:
First of all, where is the proof that this happened at all?


Screeling says he saw photos of the event. So are you saying that Screeling is lying, or are you saying that the photos are fake? What reasoning do you have for this assertion?

Agreed. Aside from the sex pictures, there was also two guys walking around where one guy was using the other guy's hand as underwear.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Those that say marriage has nothing to do with religion are being purposefully naive.
Did marriage exist before organized religion?


I don't see how that is relevant at all.

Did decorated trees exist before they were used to celebrate Christmas? Does that mean Christmas trees have nothing to do with Christmas?

FYI: In New Hampshire, the only place I could find statistics quickly, 54% of wedding held were in churches. That's a majority of married couples, in a moderately liberal state (I hypothesize this percentage is higher in redder states). To suggest that marriage and religion are not connected is, as I said before, naive.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:51 pm 
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Khross wrote:
The issue ceases to be important when it becomes nothing more than soapbox for you to spout your anti-religious pablum. You're less concerned with equality, egalitarianism, and rights than you are insulting anyone and everyone who might have faith in something because you view that as a non-essential and ignorant world view. And, honestly, that's too bad.

Anti-religious fervor is a sign of likely intelligence, because religion is far worse than Aizle makes it out to be.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
there's no such thing as "gay rights" anymore than there is "black rights" or "disabled rights")


No, but there is a gay agenda....


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:17 pm 
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Arathain:

Except, marriage and religion have no inherent connection to each other, just as the state and marriage have no inherent connection. Institutions of authority have appropriated the mating relationship. Why is that?

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