The Glade 4.0

What method to judge it are you proposing that is not being implemented?

States do not regularly purge their voter rolls.

Kaffis already pointed out that the problems with this.

Technically, the fraud might still be detected but in such a way that nohing could be done about it and it would almost certainly be allowed to stand.

They certainly do help to detect it. It is much easier to detect someone committing fraud if they must present ID.

As to the opposition to collecting data, there isn't any opposition to collecting data except on the left. Your method just doesn't work. That's evidenced by the screeching when voter roll purges are attempted. It has nothing to do with ways being "Retarded" or them being conducted "regularly"; this is just you making up nonsense in order to support handwave arguments, just like your "it's pretty doable" to mess with voting machines. You don't know. You're just saying whatever is convenient to your position.

They regularly purge them of dead people. It isn't always effective at removing all of them in a timely manner maybe, but they still do it. Show me a single state that doesn't.

No, he didn't. I already addressed his concern.

But that's the thing. It's not detected. We should expect to see some cases of people being caught trying to impersonate other voters, but we just don't. Don't you think there are people at these polling places that are concerned about fraud enough to note these incidents?

Great, they help detect it. So lets use data from some of the many states that have voter ID laws to show all those liberals how much voter fraud is occurring! Oh wait, there is no evidence of it in those states either? It must be because the law is so effective at preventing the fraud! You're the one with the catch-22 here.

Who is against collecting data? All I see is the right trying to prevent voter fraud with voter ID laws and aggressively purging voter rolls, neither of which has anything to do with collecting data on voter fraud. There are already states that do those things and they haven't collected any meaningful data showing widespread voter fraud like you are suggesting.

There is simply no evidence of it. I've explained how you can currently collect evidence of it in multiple ways, yet we still have not seen any. You need to show me something. Show me where the left is against collecting data on voter fraud, not simply against preventative measures. We just want actual evidence that there is a problem before implementing solutions that impose a burden on voters. Is that too much to ask?

A paper in the Harvard Law and Policy Review, “ID at the Polls: Assessing the Impact of Recent State Voter ID Laws on Voter Turnout”(PDF), compares changes in voter turnout between 2002 and 2006 as related to three voting requirement categories – photo ID needed, non-photo ID needed and no identification needed. Key study findings include: 1). “Non-photo ID laws [are] associated with a 2.2% point decline in turnout, and photo ID laws are correlated with a 1.6% point decline.” In a related analysis, the author found a 1.1% decline in turnout in states with strengthened photo ID laws between 2002 and 2006. 2). In 2002, prior to the widespread adoption of photo ID poll requirements, more than 40% of eligible voters in states with no voting ID requirements and more than 35% of voters in states with minimal ID requirements turned out at the polls. By 2006, the percentage of voting-age citizens who turned out in states with no ID requirement or a non-photo ID requirement increased to 42% and 38%, respectively. States requiring a photo voter ID saw the lowest percentage of voter turnout, approximately 37%. 3). Counties with older populations saw an increase in turnout of 1.5%. However, counties with higher Hispanic and Asian-American populations saw a small negative effect on voter turnout as ID laws were tightened. Greater household income positively correlated with voter turnout. 4). Possible variables impacting overall voter turnout include Election Day registration (associated with increases), the presence of an incumbent (a small increase) or a controversial ballot initiative (a 4.6% point increase in voter turnout). Much of the increase in voter turnout can be attributed to news coverage and state-sponsored public outreach.[29]

The Heritage Foundation, a conservative thinktank, disputed the methodology of the study of 900 people. The credibility of the survey was contested by another question, where 14% of respondents said they had both a U.S. birth certificate and naturalization papers.{in other words, 14% of the people said something impossible - DE}[30] In 2010, the voting age population was an estimated 237.3 million, and the citizen voting age population was 217.5 million. Of those, 186.9 million were registered voters.[31] The Heritage Foundation has pointed to U.S. Department of Transportation records showing that there were 205.8 million valid drivers licenses in 2009, meaning there are 19 million more individuals with photo ID than there are registered voters, as evidence that photo ID is not hard to obtain.[32] Similarly, Kris Kobach, a Republican supporter of Voter ID laws, points to evidence in Kansas that more than 30,000 registered drivers in Kansas are not registered to vote.[33]

While the state regularly purges dead voters from the rolls using data from the Bureau of Vital Statistics, Texas passed a bill requiring the Secretary of State to use data from the Social Security Administration to widen the net.

The analysis of 2,068 reported fraud cases by News21, a Carnegie-Knight investigative reporting project, found 10 cases of alleged in-person voter impersonation since 2000. With 146 million registered voters in the United States, those represent about one for every 15 million prospective voters.

The News21 report is based on a national public-records search in which reporters sent thousands of requests to elections officers in all 50 states, asking for every case of alleged fraudulent activity — including registration fraud; absentee-ballot fraud; vote buying; false election counts; campaign fraud; the casting of ballots by ineligible voters, such as felons and non-citizens; double voting; and voter impersonation.

The analysis found that there is more alleged fraud in absentee ballots and voter registration than in any of the other categories. The analysis shows 491 cases of alleged absentee ballot fraud and 400 cases involving registration fraud. Requiring voters to show identification at the polls — the crux of most of the new legislation — would not have prevented those cases.

The analysis also found that more than 46 percent of the reported election fraud allegations resulted in acquittals, dropped charges or decisions not to bring charges.

The good news about voting technology is that the upgrades put into place since the controversial 2000 presidential election have made ballot tallies twice as accurate as they were — but the bad news is that the rise of early vote-by-mail systems could erode those gains.

That's the assessment from the Caltech-MIT Voting Technology Project, which has been monitoring voting technology and election administration nationwide for nearly a dozen years — ever since the "hanging-chad" debacle of the Bush vs. Gore election. Coming less than three weeks before this year's Election Day, the project's latest report includes some recommendations that could improve the election process in as little as two years.

Advertise | AdChoicesBut first, project co-director Charles Stewart III, a political science professor at MIT, wants to celebrate the good news.

"Voter registration is gradually getting better," he told me. "Voting machines are clearly better. This is a voting-technology feel-good story. We're getting the voter registration process into the 20th century, if not the 21st century."

Twelve years ago, the presidential election's outcome was plunged into doubt due to Florida's poorly designed butterfly ballot. The controversy sparked a Supreme Court ruling that decided the election, as well as a multimillion-dollar federal program to upgrade voting technology. Back then, the "residual vote" — that is, the discrepancy between votes cast and votes counted — was 2 percent nationwide. That number dropped to 1 percent by 2006, thanks in large part to the replacement of punch-card and lever systems with more reliable systems.

For a while, all-electronic voting systems flourished — but after a series of scandals, election officials have been gravitating toward optical-scan machines and paper ballots, which measure up as the most reliable voting systems that are out there.

Due to these upgrades, Stewart said the possibility of a Florida-style situation "is much lower now than it was 12 years ago."

Melissa Harris-Perry and her guests talk about future investments in technology to streamline voting.
Now the bad news...
Even as the report celebrates those gains, it raises concerns about another voting trend: the growing popularity of no-excuse-needed absentee voting, also known as early voting by mail. Oregon and Washington state have gone to a strictly vote-by-mail system. In seven other states (Colorado, Nevada, Texas, New Mexico, Tennessee, North Carolina and Georgia), more than half of all ballots were cast before Election Day in 2008 — with many of them sent in the mail.

The report says that election officials should discourage no-excuse-needed absentee voting and "resist pressures to expand all-mail elections."

Why are the experts so down on the uptrend? A long-running study in California has shown that the residual vote rate for absentee ballots is 2.2 percent for presidential races, and even higher for other races and propositions. That's worse than the average in 2000. "The improvement we've gotten by having better voting machines in the precincts may be given back by having more and more people voting at home," Stewart said.

Advertise | AdChoicesThe reasons behind the high error rates include potentially confusing instructions for filling out the ballot, plus the fact that there's no opportunity to catch improperly filled-out ballots at the polling place and give the voter a chance to make corrections. Even the mailing process can play a role: Stewart referred to demonstrations showing that pencil marks can become smudged when the ballot is folded, put in an envelope and run through a postal processing machine. (Note to self: Use ballpoint pen to fill out ballot.)

If you want to cast your vote early and make sure that it counts, it's better to do it in person at an early voting site than to mail it in, Stewart said.

A solution for voter ID?
This year's report also addresses the controversy over voter identification at polling places. Republicans generally favor more stringent ID requirements, such as showing a government-issued photo ID; Democrats generally voice concern that such measures suppress the vote. The report notes that the "debate over voter identification and associated claims of election fraud may become one of the most important issues of the 2012 presidential election."

To balance those concerns, Stewart and his colleagues suggest shifting the burden for identification from the voter to the state. Each state could match up its voter registration database with photos from driver's licenses and other photo-ID databases to create "electronic pollbooks." Pollworkers could confirm a voter's identity by checking the photo that's in the pollbook. If the voter doesn't already have a photo ID on file with the state, a picture could be taken at the polling place and associated with a voter's affidavit of identity for future reference.

"Exactly the system we're talking about hasn't been done, but I think the technology for this is just a stutter step away," Stewart said. The report says such a system could be implemented in some states by 2014, and in most others by 2016.

The MIT-Caltech group also recommends that election officials conduct routine post-election audits to gauge how well they're doing, and use the results to guide corrective actions for future elections. Some activists might want to go so far as to hold up the certification of election results until audits are completed, but "right now just getting localities to do the audits is the first hurdle," Stewart said.

The report acknowledges that some of the recommendations may raise privacy issues for lawmakers to consider at the federal and state level. "You have to think seriously about these tradeoffs," Stewart said.

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

And I've voted on those machines. They generate plain-English paper records on a continuous receipt you can see behind a glass window and are asked to verify the contents of as you complete your vote.

Get up in arms if and when those physical records are destroyed; otherwise, recounts are easy and will detect any physical tampering.

But it's stupid to call for the heads of investors because you suspect them of a crime they have yet to commit. Call for the heads of the people who destroy evidence.

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

But look, I can only do so much to prove the lack of evidence. It's time for you to provide some evidence.

Summit County — home of ski paradise Park City — reported 27,230 registered voters on its rolls in 2010. The trouble is the census found only 26,254 adults residing there.

So it had 976 more registered voters than living adults.

Five other Utah counties show similar discrepancies. Grand County reported registered voters that amount to 118 percent of its adult population. In Daggett, it was 105 percent; in Rich, 104 percent; and in Carbon and San Juan, 101 percent.

Truth The Vote, a Texas-based watchdog group, is not amused.

It sent notices to these counties informing them they may be in violation of the National Voting Rights Act, and warned it may file lawsuits to force action unless the counties show progress in fixing the problem. The group sent similar notices to 154 counties in 18 other states with the same problem.

I don't need to provide any. Voter fraud is something that we should not permit. The difficulty of detecting it has already been discussed, and even if it isn't occurring right now, that does not mean that we should leave loopholes open so that it could occur.

Maybe we're looking in the wrong place for voter fraud...

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

You're talking about putting forward a very expensive big government program to try and address a problem that has an occurrence rate of 1 in 15 million people.

We all agree that voter fraud is bad and it shouldn't be allowed, but this is a colossal waste of money and time. Frankly the only reason why conservatives support this at all is because it happens to have a side effect of making their candidates easier to elect. The whole thing is disingenuous and retarded.

No I am pretty sure everyone here agrees the number one source of voter fraud is the parties themselves.

No, just the Republican party. The Democratic party are champions of the oppressed minorities.

No, just the Republican party. The Democratic party are champions of the oppressed minorities.

Okay, someone explain to me why it is sooo **** hard to get a photo ID in order to vote and why showing said ID is sooo **** hard!! Everyone in this country NEEDS a photo ID (ie: a driver's license) in order to drive. THAT is your **** photo ID!! If you don't drive you can get a plain vanilla photo ID for the same price as a driver's license at your local DMV. Explain to me why that is sooo **** difficult!!!

Try getting it when you're working a minimum wage job, don't have a car and can't get time off for when the DMV is open. Not to mention the cost factor, which while insignificant to me may be very significant to someone else.

And contrary to DE's assertion, there is a significant cost to the various programs that have been forwarded. Millions of dollars worth of cost, all to "deal" with a problem that doesn't exist in any kind of significant form.

NOW, if you guy want to talk about beefing up measures to combat voter fraud because of political parties or corrupt election officials, I am all ears. THAT would be a worthwhile expenditure of money.

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

ORLANDO, Fla. - Officials in Florida have issued a warning about a new trick trying to prevent voters from going to the polls.

Voters are getting letters that look like they are from local elections offices, questioning their citizenship. But Local 6 has learned the letters are fake, and they are going out across Central Florida and other parts of the state.

Officials said the voters who have received the letters thus far are white, registered Republicans who consistently vote in elections.

"This is a major concern," said Seminole County Supervisor of Elections Mike Ertel, who received a letter from a voter mailed from Seattle with no return address. "You should not expect a letter from your elections office saying, 'You're not registered to vote, please don't go to the polls.' That's ridiculous."

The supervisor of elections in Collier County said some residents there have also received hoax letters.

Inside the letter is the resident's supervisor of election's name, the resident's name and address, and a warning that doubts the voter's citizenship, saying the resident is not eligible to vote unless a letter is returned in an enclosed form within 15 days.

Some voters said it's easy to be fooled.

"It looks official," a Central Florida resident said.

"I would think they were full of it because I would ask for someone to prove it," said another voter when showed a copy of the fraudulent letter.

East Naples resident Wayne Hoss said he received his letter on Saturday and immediately knew it was a hoax because he was born in the United States. Hoss says the letter included a form seeking personal information, including his Social Security and driver's license numbers.

Authorities said anyone who receives a similar letter should call the Board of Elections immediately.

The Florida Division of Elections plans to send an alert to elections officials in Florida's 67 counties, warning them about the scam.

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

Try getting it when you're working a minimum wage job, don't have a car and can't get time off for when the DMV is open. Not to mention the cost factor, which while insignificant to me may be very significant to someone else.

And contrary to DE's assertion, there is a significant cost to the various programs that have been forwarded. Millions of dollars worth of cost, all to "deal" with a problem that doesn't exist in any kind of significant form.

NOW, if you guy want to talk about beefing up measures to combat voter fraud because of political parties or corrupt election officials, I am all ears. THAT would be a worthwhile expenditure of money.