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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:26 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Just compare cities with 10 highest murder rates with cities with most aggressive gun control laws. Over 50% are in high-restriction states. Local municipalities may vary in addition to state laws, such as Chicago or NYC over Illinois or NYState.

But that is a chicken versus egg proposal. You would really need to see what the crime rate was before control was implemented and compare to after (the result is probably the same, but technically...).

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:42 pm 
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https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/r ... rveillance

Because Bush was so much worse ...

Obama's position: You can break all the data collection laws you want as long as you give us your illegally collected data without notifying your consumers.

Seriously ...

Can we put him on trial, yet?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:31 am 
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Khross wrote:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/report-obama-officials-authorized-new-cybersecurity-warrantless-surveillance

Because Bush was so much worse ...

Obama's position: You can break all the data collection laws you want as long as you give us your illegally collected data without notifying your consumers.

Seriously ...

Can we put him on trial, yet?


That's a good Daily Dose!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:56 am 
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How about today's?

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Calif. bill would let non-citizens serve on juries

SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- The California Assembly passed a bill on Thursday that would make the state the first in the nation to allow non-citizens who are in the country legally to serve on jury duty.

Assemblyman Bob Wieckowski, D-Fremont, said his bill, AB1401, would help California widen the pool of prospective jurors and help integrate immigrants into the community.

It does not change other criteria for being eligible to serve on a jury, such as being at least 18, living in the county that is making the summons, and being proficient in English.

The bill passed 45-25 largely on a party-line vote in the Democratic-controlled Assembly and will move on to the Senate. One Democrat - Assemblyman Adam Gray, of Merced - voted no, while some other Democrats did not vote.

Democratic lawmakers who voted for the bill said there is no correlation between being a citizen and a juror, and they noted that there is no citizenship requirement to be an attorney or a judge. Republican lawmakers who opposed Wieckowski's bill called it misguided and premature.

Assemblywoman Diane Harkey, R-Dana Point, said there is no shortage of jurors.

"Jury selection is not the problem. The problem is trial court funding," Harkey said before the vote. "I hope we can focus on that. Let's not break something; it's not broken now. Let's not whittle away at what is reserved for U.S. citizens. There's a reason for it."

Wieckowski's office said the bill is the first of its kind in the nation and suggested that courts regularly struggle to find enough prospective jurors because jury duty is often seen as an inconvenience, if not a burden. His office did not cite any statistics but pointed to a 2003 legislative report that said numerous articles have noted high rates of non-participation.

A 2007 survey by the Center for Jury Studies said 20 percent of courts across the country reported a failure to respond or failure to appear rate of 15 percent or higher. The center is run by the National Center for State Courts, a Virginia-based nonprofit dedicated to improving court systems.

It's not clear, however, if that rate translates to a shortage of jurors in California.

Noting that women were once kept off juries, Assembly Speaker John Perez, D-Los Angeles, said the judicial system should be changed to allow a person to be judged by their peers.

"This isn't about affording someone who would come in as a juror something," Perez said. "But rather understanding that the importance of the jury selection process of affording justice to the person in that courtroom."

An estimated 10 million Californians are summoned for jury duty each year and about 4 million are eligible and available to serve, according to the Judicial Council, which administers the state's court system. About 3.2 million complete the service, meaning they waited in a courthouse assembly room or were placed on call.

In 2010-2011, the most recent year available, only about 165,000 people were sworn in as jurors.

The judicial branch has not taken a position on AB 1401.

Soon people who are not citizens will be filling the role of your constitutionally protected right to a jury of your peers. Perhaps we can soon outsource the whole legal process out to the Hague?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:02 am 
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Hopwin, I'm sad to inform you, but the 4th Amendment is Racist, because peers generally associate through homophily (similarity in age, background, ethnicity, values, and income), insomuch as we're using this whole fluid, effervescent, and totally useless evolving document through evolving language paradigm. The American legal distinction would be based on the 18th century definition of peerage outside the UK: landowning citizens of the nation. British Peerage is the UK's set of landed titleholders -- the House of Lords.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:11 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Soon people who are not citizens will be filling the role of your constitutionally protected right to a jury of your peers. Perhaps we can soon outsource the whole legal process out to the Hague?


I've never met anyone yet who WANTS to serve on a jury. it's an obligation, not a privilege. Seems that extending that obligation to legal residents who are non-citizens, while an odd choice, is just putting adding responsibility to non-americans who reside legally in America.

Is it a good idea? I don't know.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:27 am 
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Talya wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Soon people who are not citizens will be filling the role of your constitutionally protected right to a jury of your peers. Perhaps we can soon outsource the whole legal process out to the Hague?


I've never met anyone yet who WANTS to serve on a jury. it's an obligation, not a privilege. Seems that extending that obligation to legal residents who are non-citizens, while an odd choice, is just putting adding responsibility to non-americans who reside legally in America.

Is it a good idea? I don't know.

That sounds an awful lot like the argument for allowing illegal immigration because they are "taking jobs Americans don't want." Making this a philosophically consistent extension.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:38 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Talya wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Soon people who are not citizens will be filling the role of your constitutionally protected right to a jury of your peers. Perhaps we can soon outsource the whole legal process out to the Hague?


I've never met anyone yet who WANTS to serve on a jury. it's an obligation, not a privilege. Seems that extending that obligation to legal residents who are non-citizens, while an odd choice, is just putting adding responsibility to non-americans who reside legally in America.

Is it a good idea? I don't know.

That sounds an awful lot like the argument for allowing illegal immigration because they are "taking jobs Americans don't want." Making this a philosophically consistent extension.


Well, the difference would be that Americans don't want to be on a jury because it imposes on their daily lives, whereas they don't want the jobs illegal immigrants take because they drive down the wages. In the former case, California wants to allow (legal) immigrants to do the job because Americans don't want it; in the other, Americans don't want it because illegals do the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:41 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
... whereas they don't want the jobs illegal immigrants take because they drive down the wagesAmerican's are a generally lazy, self-aggrandizing population of entitlement politics deluded nitwits.
Or, in case that has too many words ...

American's don't want the jobs illegal immigrants take, because America as a nation tells its citizens they are too good to sweat.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:49 am 
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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
... whereas they don't want the jobs illegal immigrants take because they drive down the wagesAmerican's are a generally lazy, self-aggrandizing population of entitlement politics deluded nitwits.
Or, in case that has too many words ...

American's don't want the jobs illegal immigrants take, because America as a nation tells its citizens they are too good to sweat.


Americans tell themselves that because we have a minimum wage that illegals allow employers to cheat and go below. So, Americans pretty much are too good to sweat because we've legalized that status.

You can find plenty of Americans sweating in plenty of other jobs where that's not a case. I sweat my **** *** off working.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:49 am 
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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
... whereas they don't want the jobs illegal immigrants take because they drive down the wagesAmerican's are a generally lazy, self-aggrandizing population of entitlement politics deluded nitwits.
Or, in case that has too many words ...

American's don't want the jobs illegal immigrants take, because America as a nation tells its citizens they are too good to sweat.

Or serve on juries.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:22 pm 
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No no, I see it more as saying to the legal non-citizen residents, "Look, fine, you're allowed to live here, we have no problem with that. But if you're going to live here, you have to meet some of the same obligations and civic responsibilities citizens already meet."

Which is a completely valid viewpoint. You're forcing non-citizen legal residents to give back a bit for the privilege of living there.

My concern would be, the non-citizen may have less of a vested interest in enforcing the law of the country in which they live, perhaps?

Maybe not. I don't know.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:39 pm 
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Talya wrote:
My concern would be, the non-citizen may have less of a vested interest in enforcing the law of the country in which they live, perhaps?

Mine would be whether or not they even know the judicial systems, laws and rights of US citizens since they have not taken any citizenship courses.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:42 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Talya wrote:
My concern would be, the non-citizen may have less of a vested interest in enforcing the law of the country in which they live, perhaps?

Mine would be whether or not they even know the judicial systems, laws and rights of US citizens since they have not taken any citizenship courses.


Most natural born US citizens also have not taking any such courses. I suppose that makes a first-generation legal immigrant, on average, the most informed US citizen.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Talya wrote:
My concern would be, the non-citizen may have less of a vested interest in enforcing the law of the country in which they live, perhaps?

Mine would be whether or not they even know the judicial systems, laws and rights of US citizens since they have not taken any citizenship courses.


Most natural born US citizens also have not taking any such courses.


Incorrect. If they're old enough to serve on a jury, they have, at a minimum, flunked out of several "any such courses." Some may have even passed those courses, and then forgotten everything they learned.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:44 pm 
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US citizens get such things in school. They may not pay attention, but it is presented.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:51 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I sweat my **** *** off working.
Except, you're not laboring; you have a service job, ostensibly. And, before you say anything, yes, security personnel are service positions. They are non-production positions, regardless of what security they're providing. They may be the profit arm of something like Craft Security or Blackwater, but that's neither here nor there.

Our minimum wage doesn't tell American's they're too good to sweat; any idiot with half a brain knows that $5.00 an hour under the table is better take-home and more usable income than $7.25 an hour with full withholding ...

So, let me be more blunt, since apparently the original reply didn't get through to you ...

Social engineering in the United States has created a bunch of lazy, entitlement-driven nitwits who think they're too good to sweat, to labor, to dig ditches, and to shovel ****. The only problem is, we need people to sweat, labor, dig ditches, and shovel ****. Unfortunately, our entire social structure is based on telling the entire world we're above that ...

And if I want someone who knows something, I'm probably better off hiring an international candidate there, too ... in most cases. Americans are ill-educated; ill-prepared for the adult world; and generally so poorly socialized after high school and college as to be useless. This is entirely our country's fault; it's entirely our society's fault.

I'm willing to bet 9 out of 10 Glader's have 3-5 years salary in debt, and that's being generous. Most Americans have 1-2 years worth of their salary in revolving debt. Their houses are generally 10x salary initial purchase because of stupid politics. In fact, the only proof I really need that American societal norms are killing this country lies in the replies I got last time I said this: "If you need a loan to buy something, you can't afford it."

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:54 am 
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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I sweat my **** *** off working.
Except, you're not laboring; you have a service job, ostensibly. And, before you say anything, yes, security personnel are service positions. They are non-production positions, regardless of what security they're providing. They may be the profit arm of something like Craft Security or Blackwater, but that's neither here nor there.

Our minimum wage doesn't tell American's they're too good to sweat; any idiot with half a brain knows that $5.00 an hour under the table is better take-home and more usable income than $7.25 an hour with full withholding ...

So, let me be more blunt, since apparently the original reply didn't get through to you ...


It got through to me just fine. It's just that it's irrelevant, ignorant, and yet another example of you talking out of your ***.

Quote:
Social engineering in the United States has created a bunch of lazy, entitlement-driven nitwits who think they're too good to sweat, to labor, to dig ditches, and to shovel ****. The only problem is, we need people to sweat, labor, dig ditches, and shovel ****. Unfortunately, our entire social structure is based on telling the entire world we're above that ...

And if I want someone who knows something, I'm probably better off hiring an international candidate there, too ... in most cases. Americans are ill-educated; ill-prepared for the adult world; and generally so poorly socialized after high school and college as to be useless. This is entirely our country's fault; it's entirely our society's fault.

I'm willing to bet 9 out of 10 Glader's have 3-5 years salary in debt, and that's being generous. Most Americans have 1-2 years worth of their salary in revolving debt. Their houses are generally 10x salary initial purchase because of stupid politics. In fact, the only proof I really need that American societal norms are killing this country lies in the replies I got last time I said this: "If you need a loan to buy something, you can't afford it."


I'd be willing to be you're just pulling this out of your ***, it has nothing to do with the issue, and all you're doing is looking for an excuse to contradict me for the sake of contradicting me. Go troll somewhere else.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:52 am 
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Diamondeye:

I'm not trolling; I'm reminding you that our nation as a whole has serious social-engineering ills from rampant policitization and a general abandonment of a production economy. All of those numbers are based on saving rates, consumer debt loads, and verifiable statistics. That's amazingly not all that much money either, considering almost all of us are home owners. Most of us have vehicles, children, and family/parents to take care of us well. Nor is any of that insulting.

Our politics have trained 2 or 3 generations of fiscally irresponsible citizens and mostly because the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The United States needs to do a whole lot of things, starting with some sort of education that instills financial awareness and fiscal awareness in its citizens.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:48 am 
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Talya wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Soon people who are not citizens will be filling the role of your constitutionally protected right to a jury of your peers. Perhaps we can soon outsource the whole legal process out to the Hague?


I've never met anyone yet who WANTS to serve on a jury.


I always thought itd be kinda cool...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:28 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Talya wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Soon people who are not citizens will be filling the role of your constitutionally protected right to a jury of your peers. Perhaps we can soon outsource the whole legal process out to the Hague?


I've never met anyone yet who WANTS to serve on a jury.


I always thought itd be kinda cool...

Me too

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Our minimum wage doesn't tell American's they're too good to sweat; any idiot with half a brain knows that $5.00 an hour under the table is better take-home and more usable income than $7.25 an hour with full withholding ...


I'd love to see how this works out. You don't pay income tax at that low of an income, and you can probably get your payroll taxes paid returned to you as well. Do you mean the under-the-table people are fraudulently collecting welfare as well?

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I'm willing to bet 9 out of 10 Glader's have 3-5 years salary in debt, and that's being generous. Most Americans have 1-2 years worth of their salary in revolving debt. Their houses are generally 10x salary initial purchase because of stupid politics. In fact, the only proof I really need that American societal norms are killing this country lies in the replies I got last time I said this: "If you need a loan to buy something, you can't afford it."


If I take this as face value, I have to ask, what is the point of loans in the first place? Should they only exist for businesses?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:00 pm 
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With the way the US government is monetizing its debt, you'd be missing an opportunity if you didn't take out a mortgage. The real value of the currency you borrowed is devaluing much faster than the interest rate you'd be paying. It's actually profitable to take out a mortgage.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Talya wrote:
With the way the US government is monetizing its debt, you'd be missing an opportunity if you didn't take out a mortgage. The real value of the currency you borrowed is devaluing much faster than the interest rate you'd be paying. It's actually profitable to take out a mortgage.


Wages typically take a long time to reflect inflation. The yield-equivalent value of the mortgage diminshes with inflation but wages do as well. It's barely favorable to a working class person. I'd rather rent and save cash to invest in inflation hedges or even better, high yield equities.

If you could short your home equity to buy real investment instruments (as mentioned above) then by all means. Last time I checked, banks didn't give a **** about what you actually used home equity credit for as long as you alleged it was going to be to build value into your home, you had a decent income and had a reasonable amount of equity. If I had a house, I'd be leveraging the **** out of it right now for trading in the virtual, alternative currency markets and precious metals.

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A mortgage here isn't actually any more expensive, by the month, than renting. In fact, a 21-year mortgage is often cheaper than renting a place of equivalent size. The only way you can save money renting is getting a place that's incredibly small. I assumed it was the same in the USA.

(Of course, the value of my home is also up 35% since we bought it in 2006, even with the happenings of 2008. We've got almost half the value of our home as equity, and are paying less per month to live here than we did when we were renting. I'm not seeing how buying a home with a mortgage is a bad idea.)

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