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Hopwin
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:52 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Also pew pew pew lasers and SPACE MISSILES.

I want to play and DE is right so long as it is more comfortable to do nothing most people will do nothing, when it becomes more likely to result in comfort by doing something people will do something.

Football, pizza, beer - so long as these flow there won't be much in way of revolution. Disrupt any of them for a bit - watch out.

I'd say that so long as more people end up on the receiving end of the taxation equation then you won't see any action regardless of comfort level.

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Arathain Kelvar
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:24 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
No, thats not my position and you know it isn't.

The bill originated in the Senate (see those words which don't end in "the House") was sent to the house then back to the Senate. That is not the same as "The bill originated in the House" which is what is mandated by law.

It's not a strawman when the Constitution lists a process and you encourage elected officials to break that oath of office. It is literally what you're doing.


IT DOES NOT MATTER what happens in the Senate. The Senate can do whatever it wants. If the House agrees to take up the bill, and then it goes back to the Senate, they aren't breaking the rules. The process isn't violated. The bill goes through the House, then through the Senate. That's the process, and is being followed.

House Reps have the right to introduce the bill they want. It doesn't matter if the language came from the Senate, their staffers, or their wife's crazy uncle Bob. As long as it goes through the House, then the Senate, it does not violate procedure.
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Diamondeye
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:38 pm 
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You're talking past each other. No, it does not matter that the language originally was written up by a Senator or their staffer. The ideas and writing can be done anywhere. However, the bill needs to be formally introduced in the House first. It's can't come from the Senate, to the House, then go back to the Senate as an actual, introduced bill.

That said, this "violating their oath of office!" crap is just blowing things out of proportion. The Congress is well aware of the procedure, and seeing as it's easy to find a House member to introduce a bill for you, the procedure is easy to follow. Elmo just likes to talk about "violating oaths of office" because it sounds all grave and dire.

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Taskiss
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
That isn't going to happen. People go have revolutions when they're desperate. People are not desperate here, not even close. We're living in a country where people can pledge hundreds of dollars to an upcoming internet spaceship game. Professional sports are getting as much or more attention as the government shutdown. There's lots of people that can talk a good game about something like that, but they're going to sit out in the woods and keep talking because they like hunting and fishing and revolution would interrupt that. Either that, or they'd have to get off the couch, put down their beer, and miss all their favorite TV shows.. and there's just no percentage in that right now. People can make all the "bread and circuses" comments they want, but the fact is that if you're getting your bread and your circuses, you're not desperate. Life here is still vastly better than almost any other circumstance humanity has ever experienced.

I'm not disagreeing (mainly 'cause I'd have to get off the couch to do so), but what in your explanation accounts for the US war for independence? Wasn't it something about a "tea party"? We've got one of those building....

I'm not seeing "taxation without representation" as the motto for a desperate situation, and I do see some parallels about that situation and what's going on today. Seems like the situation just requires some catalyst that has yet to be introduced.

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Arathain Kelvar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
That isn't going to happen. People go have revolutions when they're desperate. People are not desperate here, not even close. We're living in a country where people can pledge hundreds of dollars to an upcoming internet spaceship game. Professional sports are getting as much or more attention as the government shutdown. There's lots of people that can talk a good game about something like that, but they're going to sit out in the woods and keep talking because they like hunting and fishing and revolution would interrupt that. Either that, or they'd have to get off the couch, put down their beer, and miss all their favorite TV shows.. and there's just no percentage in that right now. People can make all the "bread and circuses" comments they want, but the fact is that if you're getting your bread and your circuses, you're not desperate. Life here is still vastly better than almost any other circumstance humanity has ever experienced.

I'm not disagreeing (mainly 'cause I'd have to get off the couch to do so), but what in your explanation accounts for the US war for independence? Wasn't it something about a "tea party"? We've got one of those building....

I'm not seeing "taxation without representation" as the motto for a desperate situation, and I do see some parallels about that situation and what's going on today. Seems like the situation just requires some catalyst that has yet to be introduced.


Yeah, that's a bit of an oversimplification. There were a variety of transgressions, the Boston Massacre, the Boston blockade, the revocation of the right to elect officials, Lexington & Concord, invasion of Boston, and so on.
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Rorinthas
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:09 pm 
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Rightly or Wrongly, not enough people are convinced that things are that bad, or that they have no other recourse. Things were different in Revolutionary times both in perception and reality. You can argue well that some of the covert imperialism going on is just as destructive as anything the Founders went though, but well it is still rather covert and doesn't effect enough people's daily lives. And among those that do, there's not a consensus that armed violent uprising will lead to a proper solution.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. We are not the people of 1776. An armed violent uprising would either be co-opted by another tryanncial group (like the Islamists), look like something more like the Reign of Terror, or both.

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Diamondeye
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:54 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
I'm not disagreeing (mainly 'cause I'd have to get off the couch to do so), but what in your explanation accounts for the US war for independence? Wasn't it something about a "tea party"? We've got one of those building....

I'm not seeing "taxation without representation" as the motto for a desperate situation, and I do see some parallels about that situation and what's going on today. Seems like the situation just requires some catalyst that has yet to be introduced.


It's hard to compare the situations because the levels of comfort people live in now are astronomical compared to what life was like in the Revolutionary era. Life was hard and harsh back then even for those that had it easy. A revolution couldn't disrupt all the societal systems like power, water, trash removal, tv, internet, food supplies, etc. because those systems didn't exist, or were so primitive that they're almost totally dissimilar. Society is just fundamentally different, and there is a lot more to lose.

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Rynar
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:05 pm 
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The revolution is being fought right now, as we speak, on the streets of Los Santos.

There will be no uprising, and there will be no obstruction of this final salvo of the power elite as they extract the last bits of wealth and freedom of the middle class.

The masses don't care. The masses are being converted into takers. When this whole house of cards comes crashing down, the wealthy will be gone, and protected. All that will be left are the rest of us, and there will be very few scraps to fight over.

We are the frog in the slow boiling water.

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Xequecal
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:44 am 
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Los Santos? Is this a GTA reference?
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Rynar
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:25 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Los Santos? Is this a GTA reference?

Clearly.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 
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Wwen
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:20 am 
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I think an exciting Mad Max scenario is unlikely. The Decline will slowly but surely reduce the quality of life of everyone not already wealthy enough to not care. When we start shutting down overseas bases, the loss of influence and power will be more obvious.

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