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 Post subject: Revolution in the US?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:23 am 
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This article was written by a man in the top 0.01% and addresses some very important issues.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-pitchforks-are-coming-for-us-plutocrats-108014.html#ixzz35r1vMLA1

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Memo: From Nick Hanauer
To: My Fellow Zillionaires

You probably don’t know me, but like you I am one of those .01%ers, a proud and unapologetic capitalist. I have founded, co-founded and funded more than 30 companies across a range of industries—from itsy-bitsy ones like the night club I started in my 20s to giant ones like Amazon.com, for which I was the first nonfamily investor. Then I founded aQuantive, an Internet advertising company that was sold to Microsoft in 2007 for $6.4 billion. In cash. My friends and I own a bank. I tell you all this to demonstrate that in many ways I’m no different from you. Like you, I have a broad perspective on business and capitalism. And also like you, I have been rewarded obscenely for my success, with a life that the other 99.99 percent of Americans can’t even imagine. Multiple homes, my own plane, etc., etc. You know what I’m talking about. In 1992, I was selling pillows made by my family’s business, Pacific Coast Feather Co., to retail stores across the country, and the Internet was a clunky novelty to which one hooked up with a loud squawk at 300 baud. But I saw pretty quickly, even back then, that many of my customers, the big department store chains, were already doomed. I knew that as soon as the Internet became fast and trustworthy enough—and that time wasn’t far off—people were going to shop online like crazy. Goodbye, Caldor. And Filene’s. And Borders. And on and on.

Realizing that, seeing over the horizon a little faster than the next guy, was the strategic part of my success. The lucky part was that I had two friends, both immensely talented, who also saw a lot of potential in the web. One was a guy you’ve probably never heard of named Jeff Tauber, and the other was a fellow named Jeff Bezos. I was so excited by the potential of the web that I told both Jeffs that I wanted to invest in whatever they launched, big time. It just happened that the second Jeff—Bezos—called me back first to take up my investment offer. So I helped underwrite his tiny start-up bookseller. The other Jeff started a web department store called Cybershop, but at a time when trust in Internet sales was still low, it was too early for his high-end online idea; people just weren’t yet ready to buy expensive goods without personally checking them out (unlike a basic commodity like books, which don’t vary in quality—Bezos’ great insight). Cybershop didn’t make it, just another dot-com bust. Amazon did somewhat better. Now I own a very large yacht.

But let’s speak frankly to each other. I’m not the smartest guy you’ve ever met, or the hardest-working. I was a mediocre student. I’m not technical at all—I can’t write a word of code. What sets me apart, I think, is a tolerance for risk and an intuition about what will happen in the future. Seeing where things are headed is the essence of entrepreneurship. And what do I see in our future now?

I see pitchforks.

At the same time that people like you and me are thriving beyond the dreams of any plutocrats in history, the rest of the country—the 99.99 percent—is lagging far behind. The divide between the haves and have-nots is getting worse really, really fast. In 1980, the top 1 percent controlled about 8 percent of U.S. national income. The bottom 50 percent shared about 18 percent. Today the top 1 percent share about 20 percent; the bottom 50 percent, just 12 percent.

But the problem isn’t that we have inequality. Some inequality is intrinsic to any high-functioning capitalist economy. The problem is that inequality is at historically high levels and getting worse every day. Our country is rapidly becoming less a capitalist society and more a feudal society. Unless our policies change dramatically, the middle class will disappear, and we will be back to late 18th-century France. Before the revolution.

And so I have a message for my fellow filthy rich, for all of us who live in our gated bubble worlds: Wake up, people. It won’t last.

If we don’t do something to fix the glaring inequities in this economy, the pitchforks are going to come for us. No society can sustain this kind of rising inequality. In fact, there is no example in human history where wealth accumulated like this and the pitchforks didn’t eventually come out. You show me a highly unequal society, and I will show you a police state. Or an uprising. There are no counterexamples. None. It’s not if, it’s when.

Many of us think we’re special because “this is America.” We think we’re immune to the same forces that started the Arab Spring—or the French and Russian revolutions, for that matter. I know you fellow .01%ers tend to dismiss this kind of argument; I’ve had many of you tell me to my face I’m completely bonkers. And yes, I know there are many of you who are convinced that because you saw a poor kid with an iPhone that one time, inequality is a fiction.

Here’s what I say to you: You’re living in a dream world. What everyone wants to believe is that when things reach a tipping point and go from being merely crappy for the masses to dangerous and socially destabilizing, that we’re somehow going to know about that shift ahead of time. Any student of history knows that’s not the way it happens. Revolutions, like bankruptcies, come gradually, and then suddenly. One day, somebody sets himself on fire, then thousands of people are in the streets, and before you know it, the country is burning. And then there’s no time for us to get to the airport and jump on our Gulfstream Vs and fly to New Zealand. That’s the way it always happens. If inequality keeps rising as it has been, eventually it will happen. We will not be able to predict when, and it will be terrible—for everybody. But especially for us.

***

The most ironic thing about rising inequality is how completely unnecessary and self-defeating it is. If we do something about it, if we adjust our policies in the way that, say, Franklin D. Roosevelt did during the Great Depression—so that we help the 99 percent and preempt the revolutionaries and crazies, the ones with the pitchforks—that will be the best thing possible for us rich folks, too. It’s not just that we’ll escape with our lives; it’s that we’ll most certainly get even richer.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:03 pm 
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The problem with this guy is that.. well basically, he's just being ridiculous.

First of all, he talks about us becoming a "feudal society". We aren't. Feudalism is a lot more than just there being rich people and poor people. Feudalism is a system from before the concept of the nation-state. The closest thing to feudalism in the modern world are tribal societies where the family leader reports to the clan leader who reports to the tribal leader, but even there it's different from a few noble families running everything because everyone in those societies is part of a family, clan, and tribe.

Second, "income inequality" is not what creates revolutions. What creates revolutions is absolute poverty, not relative poverty. The poor in this country are fabulously wealthy compared to the poor in much of the world. The working middle class in this country is rich beyond the wildest dreams of much of the world.

The conditions of the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution occurred in times when mass starvation was a real issue, and most modern amenities did not exist AT ALL. Social programs were nearly nonexistent. They were not a simple matter of the proportion of wealth controlled by the upper classes or nobility, they were a matter of the absolute state of poverty, privation, and misery of the peasantry, combined with repression - that's real repression, not what passes for "repression" in the histrionics of spoiled brats in this country.

People take to the streets when they are TRULY desperate; when survival is in question. They don't take to the streets because someone else has more than them, because revolutions destroy a lot. People will not risk what they have on the outcome of revolution unless they really don't have any other option - and they do. In this country we have the government practically begging people to take some help.

People are flooding into this country to do the jobs Americans supposedly don't want to do. People don't run to revolutions; they run away from them.

This guy and his "highly unequal societies" he can't show examples of are unequal in a lot of ways other than just distribution of wealth; most importantly, if you're at the bottom you don't have an XBOX, you don't have food stamps, and you don't have anyone complaining about how unequal it is for you.

This kind of tomfoolery is what passes for being informed these days. This man, despite his business acumen, has at best a poor grasp of history. The only one in need of a wakeup call is him. He is the one living in a dream world, where complex issues can be distilled down to the one aspect he understands - relative wealth distribution - and this somehow passes for understanding of history.

The worst part is that he talks at the end about how if they help everyone, they'll get richer. In fact, that's what's happened. Everyone HAS gotten richer; we live in unbelievable abundance compared Russians in 1917 or French people in the 18th and 19th Century. We have amenities now that seemed like science fiction in 1980. It's just that the rich have gotten rich proportionately faster. Yeah, FDR indeed. We've been over the New Deal before.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:05 pm 
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I'm betting on it happening when Medicare finally goes belly up and we basically start telling people they need to be millionaires if they want to live past 70.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:18 pm 
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Both Xequecal and Diamondeye are right.

As long as people's basic needs are being met and they feel something of the prosperity of the country, and as long as class-mobility still exists, the eventually revolution will be held up. The wealth divide itself is not the problem.

Once the average person no longer has the same amenities needed to live just as long a life as "the 1%" in relative ease and comfort, then the pitchforks will come out.

Once there are no more stories of people like in the OP, going from rags to obscene riches -- just lots of people with old money living a patrician life above the plebians, then the pitchforks will come out.

I am somewhat "libertarian" (with a small L) in my political views, but not 100%. It's not sustainable. Equality of opportunity must be maintained, and medical accessibility (and affordability) and education are part of equality of opportunity. Likewise, the moment a significant percentage of the population can no longer afford the basics, things get extremely dangerous for the ones that CAN afford them.

Let the economic system look after itself, but if you let it start looking like France or Russia under their monarchies, then you will hear the calls of rebellion. It's not a matter of if, but when.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:30 pm 
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No one's going to have a revolution over healthcare, either, or because of life expectancy. Revolutions are not clean; they're messy and kill you right now, whereas "having to be a millionaire to live past 70" (which is nonsense anyhow) doesn't kill you until you're.. over 70, and people lived past 70 before modern healthcare.

In any case, the idea that the bottom economically-tiered people in this country would ever become some unified group is questionable, at best, anyhow. All those illegal immigrants? they'd leave; they wouldn't stick around to fight alongside the urban poor; they came here to get away from violence (even though the violence in their countries is really not that bad). The rural poor and working people, and those working in poor suburbs are not going to team up with the inner city poor that blame them as much as they do rich people becuase they're all "white America" and probably racist.

Occupy Wall Street was this supposed rage.. and it fizzled already. People got a taste of sitting out in the rain and cold.. not even actually fighting.. and decided it wasn't worth it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:12 pm 
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See the thing about the one percent is that it used to be that people in this country moved freely into and out of with regularity, sometimes multiple times with in our own life time. Gates, Jobs, even this dude freely admits that's the case for himself. We even have people like Colonel Sanders went from being well off, to flat broke, to being a household name, all in the space of a decade or two. It's only Recent government policies that have kept down employment and entrepreneurship have kinda put the breaks on that.

The thing about 99% in this country is that in the whole of world history, they are the one percent. a great many people that have lived and do live outside North America, (especially those with enough income and free time to complain on the Internet) have and do have it far worse than the "Poorest" modern American. Yeah we have the occasional street person, but they don't live that way for the whole of their life, let alone generationally. Come with me to Zambia sometime. I'll show you the real, multigenerational 99%

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:47 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
No one's going to have a revolution over healthcare, either, or because of life expectancy. Revolutions are not clean; they're messy and kill you right now, whereas "having to be a millionaire to live past 70" (which is nonsense anyhow) doesn't kill you until you're.. over 70, and people lived past 70 before modern healthcare.


That's why I said "expect to live past 70," sure some people will still live that long, but it won't be likely.

The fact is that the current dynamic of having people stay in school until 26, followed by retirement at 65 and then expecting to live to 87 (48 years, or 55% of their total lifespan, spent only consuming and producing nothing) like we have right now is absolutely unaffordable. Not just for us, either, almost no country in the world has the ability to afford this. Most rich European countries are facing similar impending disasters. Medicare and Medicaid are borrowing close to 80% of their budgets to deal with the fact that it costs an average of almost $1.5 million now to provide healthcare for a 65-year old until death. It's not like privatization is a viable answer here either, even if removing the government's inefficiencies cut that price in half, who retires with $750,000 in the bank, let alone with $750,000 just for health care?

The fact is, though, that people have come to expect this kind of easy life and longevity and when it comes down to losing 10 years off their life expectancies or robbing the rich to pay for it, they're going to choose the latter.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Quote:
That's why I said "expect to live past 70," sure some people will still live that long, but it won't be likely.


Yes it will. People living into their 80s and 90s now, or 20-30 years ago spent most of their lives with much less advanced care than what is available today. The biggest gains in life expectancy come from safety, sanitation, and nutrition

Xequecal wrote:
The fact is that the current dynamic of having people stay in school until 26


Most people do not.

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followed by retirement at 65 and then expecting to live to 87 (48 years, or 55% of their total lifespan, spent only consuming and producing nothing) like we have right now is absolutely unaffordable. Not just for us, either, almost no country in the world has the ability to afford this. Most rich European countries are facing similar impending disasters. Medicare and Medicaid are borrowing close to 80% of their budgets to deal with the fact that it costs an average of almost $1.5 million now to provide healthcare for a 65-year old until death. It's not like privatization is a viable answer here either, even if removing the government's inefficiencies cut that price in half, who retires with $750,000 in the bank, let alone with $750,000 just for health care?


Without massive subsidies for care, prices will drop. Part of the reason health care costs are so high is the deep pockets of insurance companies and government. Hospitals charging $5 for an alcohol wipe and hundreds of dollars for basics you find in any hotel are a product of this. In any case, 1.5 million spread over about 22 years is a little over $68,000 per year. It isn't an up-front cost. Privatization also does not mean "You suddenly pay for the entire cost yourself". If we abandoned medicare, other rules and practices would necessarily adjust.

Your rich European countries are also allowing their workers to get away with basically not working even when they do work, with extreme amounts of vacation, short workdays/weeks, excessive maternity/paternity/family leave, and other practices.

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The fact is, though, that people have come to expect this kind of easy life and longevity and when it comes down to losing 10 years off their life expectancies or robbing the rich to pay for it, they're going to choose the latter.


"Robbing the rich" amounts to taxation. People are not going to take to the streets in armed revolution over a drop in abstract life expectancy. You just need to get it out of your head that there's some kind of death sentence involved with not getting one's every health need catered to.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:34 pm 
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People aren't going to riot or have a revolution unless they don't have basic necessities like food.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:30 am 
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I can certainly understand the dismay over the increasing gap between wealthy and poor at a time when the majority of Americans are stagnating. If we were all doing better nobody would care about the 1%.

That said, revolution is another matter. When it comes to any action, you must weigh the gains against the cost.

I work reasonably hard, put food on the table, and my children have a reasonable chance of being able to do the same. I have no illusion that this would change for the better under any system. I could potentially be squeezed less, but I'm surviving the squeeze at the moment.

I could also watch my children starve during a violent uprising.

Now, that said - I'm in the top 8%. That is frightening. I say so because things can get pretty tight. If things can get tight for me, how does the other 92% survive? Let's just say that the Country will be burning long before I get around to sharpening my pitchfork.

Lastly, DE is taking him a bit too literally. He doesn't mean we are heading to a feudal system in the strict sense, but economically in where everyone pretty much works for a select few.

And he doesn't say the revolution is imminent. He's saying if the gap continues to widen at this pace, it will occur. And I think he's right - the current situation is not sustainable.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:39 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Lastly, DE is taking him a bit too literally. He doesn't mean we are heading to a feudal system in the strict sense, but economically in where everyone pretty much works for a select few.


That's true of every economic system there is, in some sense, the pretensions of communism notwithstanding. Someone is always able to find a way to describe it as "working for a select few". If he doesn't literally mean feudalism, then he is just throwing around terms he doesn't understand for impact. The defining aspect of feudalism is the system of personal fealty and obligation ostensibly in exchange for protection, not the fact that there's a small, economic elite.

In any case, it does not matter how much the gap widens as long as the needs of the poor are met - and they are.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:23 pm 
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To be fair, Diamondeye, you're ignoring the second part of Feudalism, which is the hereditary classism that accompanies the fealty.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:08 am 
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When the beer stops flowing and the football isn't on tv people will riot. It's not the basics people need to keep them from taking up arms for a more comfortable life, its the distractions that fills time in their heads.

The revolutions in the mid-east didn't come because people were starving. They came because they had gained access to the information and learned how their nation was run and didn't take it anymore.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:11 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Lastly, DE is taking him a bit too literally. He doesn't mean we are heading to a feudal system in the strict sense, but economically in where everyone pretty much works for a select few.


That's true of every economic system there is, in some sense, the pretensions of communism notwithstanding. Someone is always able to find a way to describe it as "working for a select few". If he doesn't literally mean feudalism, then he is just throwing around terms he doesn't understand for impact. The defining aspect of feudalism is the system of personal fealty and obligation ostensibly in exchange for protection, not the fact that there's a small, economic elite.

In any case, it does not matter how much the gap widens as long as the needs of the poor are met - and they are.


And I think that's (loosely) what he's getting at. As the power, money, and influence consolidates into the hands of a few people and/or businesses, I think he's suggesting that the masses will be subjugated to these individuals or entities, and will be forced to rely on them for meeting their basic needs.

I think he's being a little loose with the definition, but I think I see what he's getting at, if I don't take him to literal.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:27 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Lastly, DE is taking him a bit too literally. He doesn't mean we are heading to a feudal system in the strict sense, but economically in where everyone pretty much works for a select few.


That's true of every economic system there is, in some sense, the pretensions of communism notwithstanding. Someone is always able to find a way to describe it as "working for a select few". If he doesn't literally mean feudalism, then he is just throwing around terms he doesn't understand for impact. The defining aspect of feudalism is the system of personal fealty and obligation ostensibly in exchange for protection, not the fact that there's a small, economic elite.

In any case, it does not matter how much the gap widens as long as the needs of the poor are met - and they are.


And I think that's (loosely) what he's getting at. As the power, money, and influence consolidates into the hands of a few people and/or businesses, I think he's suggesting that the masses will be subjugated to these individuals or entities, and will be forced to rely on them for meeting their basic needs.


I think this is a basic element of "having a society". People need to form into organizations to accomplish much of anything; the people at the tops of those organizations inevitably have power.

Quote:
I think he's being a little loose with the definition, but I think I see what he's getting at, if I don't take him to literal.


I think what he's getting at is rather tautological.

I would also point out that he talks about "not having time to get in one's gulfstream and fly to New Zealand". That rather indicates an idea of sudden, violent revolution. The impracticality of this scenario is so great as to defy deconstruction in the time available here.

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