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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Rodahn wrote:
Funny.

If this were an older male soliciting a younger woman online, he'd be crucified . . .


Yeah, I can't help but imagine the same thing. While this is stupid all around, people would be making a much bigger deal if the genders were reversed in this situation.

As to why charges are being brought against her, it all goes back to the "luring of a minor" part. Which is dumb. Especially when the kid said he was 20. But, it is apparently illegal.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:59 pm 
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My question is not the ages, but in the jurisdiction issues that this presents.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:19 am 
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darksiege wrote:
My question is not the ages, but in the jurisdiction issues that this presents.

Okay, if the age isn't the issue, let's put that aside.

You're saying that as long as the sex doesn't occur in a jurisdiction, it doesn't matter if the arrangements and setting up of the sex does? Because that's what the charge is.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:34 am 
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DFK! wrote:
Strict liability, like DE mentioned, is the only exception I can think of to this.

I'm glad you agree with my original critique then.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:45 am 
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Ladas wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Strict liability, like DE mentioned, is the only exception I can think of to this.

I'm glad you agree with my original critique then.


I do not, because strict liability is a newer invention of law, not "historical."

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:16 am 
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Like I said DFK, as an absolute, your statement is not accurate and does not incorporate the "entirety" of criminal law.

I agree, intent is very important, and in this particular case, probably the most important facet. I was just being nit picky about your comment.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:32 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
darksiege wrote:
My question is not the ages, but in the jurisdiction issues that this presents.

Okay, if the age isn't the issue, let's put that aside.

You're saying that as long as the sex doesn't occur in a jurisdiction, it doesn't matter if the arrangements and setting up of the sex does? Because that's what the charge is.


As long as the sex does not occur somewhere illegal, there's no foul committed. See above comments re:Thailand.

Even more so if the sex actually doesn't occur. In this **** up country, you can beat the **** out of someone and get probation. Touch one 17 year old and you're branded as a child molester for life. Why is sex so much more evil than violence? Its just like with the movies. Kill hundreds of people show rampant violence and destruction... one pair of titties, and its instantly "R". At least sex and intimacy and such makes you feel good. I know I'm not in the mood to drive fast and run over pedestrians shooting my guns out the window right after I get laid. I just want to cuddle and nap. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:22 am 
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Micheal wrote:
This is the distaff version of a much larger problem. Men have traveled to foreign countries, especially places like Thailand, for decades because of the lax attitude toward prostitution and sex with children if the money is good enough.

The woman here traveled to a foreign country and specifically to have sex with a child. If she knew he was 16, she committed a felony by Texas law. The United Kingdom is prosecuting their citizens for the same practice. I've heard of laws in consideration here but I don't know if any have been passed.


My father paid a half mil in fines and is serving a 7 year federal prison sentence for this.
His actions were more extreme, but he was apprehended by ICE, and charged with Sexual Tourism.

He accepted a plea bargain, this while knowing there would be no "victim" to testify.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:55 am 
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Ladas wrote:
Like I said DFK, as an absolute, your statement is not accurate and does not incorporate the "entirety" of criminal law.

I agree, intent is very important, and in this particular case, probably the most important facet. I was just being nit picky about your comment.



NIT PICKER!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
darksiege wrote:
My question is not the ages, but in the jurisdiction issues that this presents.

Okay, if the age isn't the issue, let's put that aside.

You're saying that as long as the sex doesn't occur in a jurisdiction, it doesn't matter if the arrangements and setting up of the sex does? Because that's what the charge is.


As long as the sex does not occur somewhere illegal, there's no foul committed. See above comments re:Thailand.

Even more so if the sex actually doesn't occur. In this **** up country, you can beat the **** out of someone and get probation. Touch one 17 year old and you're branded as a child molester for life. Why is sex so much more evil than violence? Its just like with the movies. Kill hundreds of people show rampant violence and destruction... one pair of titties, and its instantly "R". At least sex and intimacy and such makes you feel good. I know I'm not in the mood to drive fast and run over pedestrians shooting my guns out the window right after I get laid. I just want to cuddle and nap. :)

Okay. How do you feel about a domestic company arranging contracted sexual escapades (involving minors) in a third world country? As some kind of "vacation plan for perverts?"

Are crimes committed here, then?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:14 pm 
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Nope. No crimes there.

As long as the acts are legal where they are performed, then no crime was committed.

Now, if the domestic company was contracting with a company that used minors against the laws of the country (slavery, etc) then there is a crime.

Different countries have different laws, people go to Amsterdam to do whatever all the time. How is going and sexing a 15 year old in Thailand (if its legal there) any different?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:22 pm 
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Because anything involving sexual activity is automatically a worse crime.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:30 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Because anything involving sexual activity is automatically a worse crime.


So its ok if I beat up someone as long as I don't give them an orgasm too?

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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:36 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Okay. How do you feel about a domestic company arranging contracted sexual escapades (involving minors) in a third world country? As some kind of "vacation plan for perverts?"

Are crimes committed here, then?


I'm relatively sure there are federal laws against that, too.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Child Sex Tourism USDOJ
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The United States has risen to take legislative action against the growing evils of child sex tourism. In 1994, Congress established 18 U.S.C. § 2423(b), which is aimed towards prosecution of child sex tourists. Section 2423(b) criminalizes traveling abroad for the purpose of engaging in illegal sexual activity with a minor. Currently, successful prosecution under § 2423(b) requires the government to prove that an alleged child sex tourist from the United States formed the intent to engage in sexual activity with a child prior to meeting the child and initiating sexual contact. In other words, a defendant is only punishable under § 2423(b) if he has the intent, while traveling, to engage in sexual activity with minors. The federal government has successfully utilized § 2423(b) to target several child sex tourists. Current proposals to eliminate the intent requirement may broaden the government's prosecutorial power by allowing the government to prosecute United States citizens who engage in sexual acts with children while abroad, regardless of when they formed the intent to do so.

Child sex tourism grows at an alarming rate and inflicts devastating consequences on millions of children around the globe. As a global leader, the United States is committed to using its power to reform and eradicate child sex tourism industry.

-Sowmia Nair


18 U.S.C. § 2423(b)
Quote:
(b) Travel With Intent To Engage in Illicit Sexual Conduct.— A person who travels in interstate commerce or travels into the United States, or a United States citizen or an alien admitted for permanent residence in the United States who travels in foreign commerce, for the purpose of engaging in any illicit sexual conduct with another person shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:00 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Okay. How do you feel about a domestic company arranging contracted sexual escapades (involving minors) in a third world country? As some kind of "vacation plan for perverts?"

Are crimes committed here, then?


I'm relatively sure there are federal laws against that, too.


18 U.S.C. § 2423(d) Ancillary Offenses.— Whoever, for the purpose of commercial advantage or private financial gain, arranges, induces, procures, or facilitates the travel of a person knowing that such a person is traveling in interstate commerce or foreign commerce for the purpose of engaging in illicit sexual conduct shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:32 pm 
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I've always wondered, but are there legal repercussions against the person involved that misrepresented themselves?

Like in this case, the boy allegedly told her he was 20, and she believed him. As he is the one that actually caused the problem in the first place by lying about his age, would he face any repercussions if he were somewhere in the US?

I say that because he's legal where he is. I've just never understood how the person that was lied to can be punished, in some cases so severly, while the person who actually created the problem by lying seemingly gets off scott free. This seems like a horrible injustice.


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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:04 pm 
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Jocificus wrote:
I've always wondered, but are there legal repercussions against the person involved that misrepresented themselves?

Like in this case, the boy allegedly told her he was 20, and she believed him. As he is the one that actually caused the problem in the first place by lying about his age, would he face any repercussions if he were somewhere in the US?

I say that because he's legal where he is. I've just never understood how the person that was lied to can be punished, in some cases so severly, while the person who actually created the problem by lying seemingly gets off scott free. This seems like a horrible injustice.


Because sex is awful and dirty and noone should ever have it except for the express purpose of reproduction. And even that can be resolved with in-vitro.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Jocificus wrote:
I've always wondered, but are there legal repercussions against the person involved that misrepresented themselves?

Like in this case, the boy allegedly told her he was 20, and she believed him. As he is the one that actually caused the problem in the first place by lying about his age, would he face any repercussions if he were somewhere in the US?

I say that because he's legal where he is. I've just never understood how the person that was lied to can be punished, in some cases so severly, while the person who actually created the problem by lying seemingly gets off scott free. This seems like a horrible injustice.


Because sex is awful and dirty and noone should ever have it except for the express purpose of reproduction. And even that can be resolved with in-vitro.


No, it's more the fact that whenever people think of sex with an underage person, they think a young boy, or that innocent teen girl who really doesn't want sex, and the laws are made based on that stereotype.

It never occurs to anyone that the teenager might possibly want to engage in sexual activity unless it's an underage male with a woman, and even then it's still treated as if the teen can't possibly understand what they were really doing. In popular media, fiction or nonfiction, all female teens always really want to say "no" and most of the males really do too, it's just "peer pressure" or something stopping them from doing so.

That's why the laws are so **** up. Everyone wants to see teenagers as "children" who need to be protected from their own sexuality. Sure, they aren't adults, and they do need supervision and guidance, but they also need it acknowledged that they are not being inherently irresponsible just for wanting sex, and they need to be held responsible for their sexual behaviors.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:57 pm 
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But if the country you are going to be in when the sex happens does not consider the sex illicit... Then the US government is overstepping its boundaries by prosecuting.

Especially since it is not a standard age of consent in the US, but varying by state.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:19 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
But if the country you are going to be in when the sex happens does not consider the sex illicit... Then the US government is overstepping its boundaries by prosecuting.

Especially since it is not a standard age of consent in the US, but varying by state.


BUT ITS FOR THE CHILDRENS!!! WE HAS TO PROTECT THEM!!!

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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
t never occurs to anyone that the teenager might possibly want to engage in sexual activity unless it's an underage male with a woman, and even then it's still treated as if the teen can't possibly understand what they were really doing. In popular media, fiction or nonfiction, all female teens always really want to say "no" and most of the males really do too, it's just "peer pressure" or something stopping them from doing so.
This creates a rather interesting chicken and egg scenario, because the portrayal of teenagers always really wanting to say "no" is a result of our own puritanical reaction to sex. Teenagers have to want to say no, have to be unwilling, otherwise we might be in danger of removing the social stigma on enjoying sex.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:40 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
But if the country you are going to be in when the sex happens does not consider the sex illicit... Then the US government is overstepping its boundaries by prosecuting.

Especially since it is not a standard age of consent in the US, but varying by state.


Well, for one thing it's not the U.S. government prosecuting in this case. For another, we're not overstepping our bounds at all even if we do. The state of Texas may be overstepping its bounds, and prosecuting in a case like this may be perfectly silly, but preventing our citizens from going overseas to exploit child sex slaves is not overstepping our bounds at all.

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 Post subject: Re: World of Cougarcraft
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
t never occurs to anyone that the teenager might possibly want to engage in sexual activity unless it's an underage male with a woman, and even then it's still treated as if the teen can't possibly understand what they were really doing. In popular media, fiction or nonfiction, all female teens always really want to say "no" and most of the males really do too, it's just "peer pressure" or something stopping them from doing so.
This creates a rather interesting chicken and egg scenario, because the portrayal of teenagers always really wanting to say "no" is a result of our own puritanical reaction to sex. Teenagers have to want to say no, have to be unwilling, otherwise we might be in danger of removing the social stigma on enjoying sex.


I don't think there's really that much social stigma on enjoying sex per se anymore. We've replaced it with more of a social stigma on enjoying "irresponsible" sex. The problem here arises with the assumption that teenage sex is always irresponsible. This runs head-on into our desire to treat teens as children rather than adolescents. We have no problem castigating teens for irresponsible sexual activity when it's 2 teens involved, but we excuse them from responsibility as soon as an adult becomes involved. In some cases, that makes some sense, especially with younger teens and older adults, but in other cases it gets really absurd, especially when the adult is still a teen themself.

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