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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
It's sad that everything that doesn't support Obama is racist to the left.


I'm sorry, but that criticism is a total straw man. It's not even remotely true. Racism is racism. If people were screaming about actual policy, or talking about policy, there would be no such criticism. However, they are disrespecting him in a way they would not have disrespected a White president, especially a white republican president. They are shouting about conspiracy theories and crazed, lunatic ideas that he was born in Kenya (thus, making him the Other, and not American, which is to say White). They scream about how he's going to cover all the brown people sneaking across the border without an ounce of evidence to support their claims.

It just stinks of racism, all around.

Now, there are plenty of non racist criticisms of the President. Some of those can be found here, and elsewhere. But they do not dominate the discourse on the right. If you flip to any right wing radio talk show or tv pundit, their commentary is dripping with irrational hatred.

There is no race card. That's a straw man, as well. When someone says "The most intense opposition to the president clearly has racial overtones" that's not playing some kind of race card, it's a statement of observable fact.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:32 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
It's sad that everything that doesn't support Obama is racist to the left.


I'm sorry, but that criticism is a total straw man.


It's not a straw man at all. It's Vindicarre's view on the subject. Is there a reason you insist on misusing this term?

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It's not even remotely true. Racism is racism. If people were screaming about actual policy, or talking about policy, there would be no such criticism. However, they are disrespecting him in a way they would not have disrespected a White president, especially a white republican president. They are shouting about conspiracy theories and crazed, lunatic ideas that he was born in Kenya (thus, making him the Other, and not American, which is to say White). They scream about how he's going to cover all the brown people sneaking across the border without an ounce of evidence to support their claims.


It's quite true. People are not screaming anything about "brown people", they're pointing out how his "plan" doesn't close loopholes, thus rendering it irrelevant that they aren't covered under it, and that in his speech it's unclear what plan he is talking about, and that the plans that have actually been written include no enforcement mechanism to keep illegals from getting coverage.

Wht any theory about him being born in Kenya has to do with this is beyond me. Maybe you should stick to the topic at hand.

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It just stinks of racism, all around.


No, it doesn't. Racism is just a tired tactic to avoid talking about the details the President and the left are glossing over.

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Now, there are plenty of non racist criticisms of the President. Some of those can be found here, and elsewhere. But they do not dominate the discourse on the right. If you flip to any right wing radio talk show or tv pundit, their commentary is dripping with irrational hatred.


No it isn't.

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There is no race card. That's a straw man, as well. When someone says "The most intense opposition to the president clearly has racial overtones" that's not playing some kind of race card, it's a statement of observable fact.


No, it's not. "Observable fact" does not mean extrapolated racial overtones that cannot be established by anything other than people's assumptions, such as your ideas about Joe Wilson. It's not a straw man, either; it's got nothing to do with distorting anyone's argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:05 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
It's not a straw man at all. It's Vindicarre's view on the subject. Is there a reason you insist on misusing this term?


He didn't say "in my opinion", and even if he did, he's still constructing a straw man. He is constructing an argument no one has made, and it's an easy target to take down (which is why no one is making it).

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It's quite true.


It's true that *every* criticism of the president is being called racism? Every single one, without exception?

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People are not screaming anything about "brown people", they're pointing out how his "plan" doesn't close loopholes,


They invented a potential loophole, and then called his statement a lie. Had he been Bush, people on the right would have been screaming up and down about how such a thing was slander.

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Wht any theory about him being born in Kenya has to do with this is beyond me. Maybe you should stick to the topic at hand.


It's born of racism. He is clearly the Other, not Native, born in Kenya. How can he be a real American? He's black, and president. he must be foreign. I mean, look at his skin! He can't possibly be from this country!!

Look at all the "go back to Kenya" signs. It's no different than shouting that a black man should go back to Africa.

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No, it doesn't. Racism is just a tired tactic to avoid talking about the details the President and the left are glossing over.


Perhaps not to you. Racism is not a tired tactic to avoid talking about the details the President is "glossing over". Racism is placards depicting a black man as a monkey. Racism is accusing him of being all "uppity" and not knowing his place. Racism is shouting that he's a liar when that man *never* would have treated a white man that way. Racism was *all over* the tea party protests.

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No it isn't.


I'm totally convinced.

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No, it's not. "


You convinced me again. Well done.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:53 pm 
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Again Monty, thank you for proving my point. You've done quite well.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:54 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:




No, it doesn't. Racism is just a tired tactic to avoid talking about the details the President and the left are glossing over.


Perhaps not to you. Racism is not a tired tactic to avoid talking about the details the President is "glossing over". Racism is placards depicting a black man as a monkey. Racism is accusing him of being all "uppity" and not knowing his place. Racism is shouting that he's a liar when that man *never* would have treated a white man that way. Racism was *all over* the tea party protests.


To be honest? So **** what? Does it really matter where the hate comes from? I would venture that President Bush was treated FAR worse and FAR more disrespectfully by libs than Obama's being treated by the Cons.

The only difference? Libs can shout Racism! Conservatives couldn't.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:29 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Again Monty, thank you for proving my point. You've done quite well.


What exactly are you referring to, Nitefox?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:31 am 
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Müs wrote:

To be honest? So **** what? Does it really matter where the hate comes from? I would venture that President Bush was treated FAR worse and FAR more disrespectfully by libs than Obama's being treated by the Cons.

The only difference? Libs can shout Racism! Conservatives couldn't.


Liberals, you mean? No, he wasn't treated worse than Obama is being treated by the right. And the difference is that Bush squandered what was a 90 percent approval rating to the lowest of any president since we have been recording the numbers. He earned the ire of the people of this country.

Look, no one accused him of not being an American citizen.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:34 am 
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Monte wrote:
Müs wrote:

To be honest? So **** what? Does it really matter where the hate comes from? I would venture that President Bush was treated FAR worse and FAR more disrespectfully by libs than Obama's being treated by the Cons.

The only difference? Libs can shout Racism! Conservatives couldn't.


Liberals, you mean? No, he wasn't treated worse than Obama is being treated by the right. And the difference is that Bush squandered what was a 90 percent approval rating to the lowest of any president since we have been recording the numbers. He earned the ire of the people of this country.

Look, no one accused him of not being an American citizen.


Sure, but people threatened his life, called him King Chimpy the first, and the hatred and vitriol was similar to or in excess of the same levied at Barry.

Your argument is, since its *racism* its worse. Am I reading you correctly?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:39 am 
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His name is Barack, Mus. I mean, you can call him Berry, but it's not accurate, and kind of disrespectful.

Yes, that's a good way to put it. The racism inherent in much of the raw hatred spewed at Barak Obama is definitely worse. In the same way that raping a woman because she's gay, to punish her for being gay, and to scare other gay people into the closet, is worse than a standard horrible rape.

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Last edited by Monte on Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:45 am 
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Monte wrote:
His name is Barak, Mus. I mean, you can call him Berry, but it's not accurate, and kind of disrespectful.


No, his name is Barack.

I mean, you can call him Barak, but it's not accurate, and kind of disrespectful.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:48 am 
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Thank you for pointing out my spelling error. I'm glad we agree on the lack of respect, though.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:53 am 
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Monte wrote:
His name is Barack, Mus. I mean, you can call him Berry, but it's not accurate, and kind of disrespectful.


Calling him Berry would be inaccurate, and kind of disrespectful, but since the name Ara used was "Barry", I guess that changes things.

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Last edited by Vindicarre on Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:53 am 
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Monte wrote:
Thank you for pointing out my spelling error. I'm glad we agree on the lack of respect, though.


Well I find no problem calling him Barry. After all, we just got done with Dubya.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:56 am 
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I didn't realize the President gave up control of his name at some point during his life. I guess it's not accurate to call me by my full name, and instead by the shortened version because I used it when I was a kid? My name is the full version, and I don't like it when people use the short version. It's my name, I control it, and it's disrespectful to use the shorthand version.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:59 am 
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Monte wrote:
I didn't realize the President gave up control of his name at some point during his life. I guess it's not accurate to call me by my full name, and instead by the shortened version because I used it when I was a kid? My name is the full version, and I don't like it when people use the short version. It's my name, I control it, and it's disrespectful to use the shorthand version.


So we shouldn't refer to people by anything except their full name? I just want to be sure of what you're stating here.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:10 am 
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including Middle initials?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:14 am 
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Monte wrote:
I didn't realize the President gave up control of his name at some point during his life. I guess it's not accurate to call me by my full name, and instead by the shortened version because I used it when I was a kid? My name is the full version, and I don't like it when people use the short version. It's my name, I control it, and it's disrespectful to use the shorthand version.


No, you control what you *want* people to call you. You can't control what I choose to call you, just as I can't control what you choose to call me.

We kinda do have that freedom in this country.

I can call the president Fluffelburger Dingledangle Whifferdorfer the Almighty if I so choose.

The main difference though, is I don't particularly give a **** what you call me. I'm not that thin skinned.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:17 am 
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Monte wrote:
Yes, that's a good way to put it. The racism inherent in much of the raw hatred spewed at Barak Obama is definitely worse. In the same way that raping a woman because she's gay, to punish her for being gay, and to scare other gay people into the closet, is worse than a standard horrible rape.


Also, this line of thinking makes my head hurt.

Its not the actual rape that's the horrible part, but the motive behind it that determines the degree of severity?

Personally, I think all rape is equally horrible. Its a terrible, violent violation of a person. It doesn't matter *why* it was done, just that it was done.

Do you think a woman who was raped would really think "Well, at least he didn't rape me cause I'm a lesbian!"

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:17 am 
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That's true, I can't control what you chose to call me. However, it's rude to use a name that I don't prefer. You may not care about that, and that's fine. But that doesn't mean it's not rude.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:21 am 
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If someone were to call me by a name that I don't prefer, and I will never hear it, should I be offended?

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That's entirely up to you.

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I think we can dispense with the posturing bullshit and admit we that Bush was called "Dubya" as a passive-aggressive way to belittle him and more easily tie and associate him with the "cowboyistic", neanderthal, knuckle-dragging image various people invented. And that "Barry" has nearly the same intention, though the specific context might vary.

Calling him "Bery" however, would be a big misnomer.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:49 am 
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Monte wrote:
That's entirely up to you.


Then perhaps you should take that as a clue as to whom it would be disrespectful. Kind of like the whole race card defense. Perhaps The President of the United States has that clue for you:

Quote:
Barack Obama disagrees with former president Jimmy Carter that critics of his presidency were inherently racist.But President Obama's spokesman Robert Gibbs told journalists at the White House: "The president does not believe that that criticism comes based on the colour of his skin.
"We understand that people have disagreements with some of the decisions that we've made and some of the extraordinary actions that had to be undertaken by both this administration and previous administrations to stabilise our financial system, to ensure viability of our domestic auto industry.
"Like I said, the president does not believe that it's based on the colour of his skin."


Another take on it would be this one:

Houston Chronicle


Spoiler:
By JONAH GOLDBERG
Sept. 17, 2009, 8:12PM

Of all the poisonous, ugly and intellectually vapid controversies ginned up in my lifetime, the current breakout of St. Vitus' Dance over the “racist” opposition to Barack Obama may be the most egregious.
Al Sharpton tells CNN's Larry King that decent and racially sensitive Americans shouldn't let a small minority make health care into a “racial issue.”
Someone in the control room surely yelled, “Cue the laugh track!”
In case you don't get the joke, this entire “debate” over whether opposition to Obama's health care reform is racist is totally, completely and in every way conceivable an invention of the left.
Oh, sure, there are some racists who oppose Obama. Shocking news, that.
And, yes, a tiny, tiny fraction of the signs at the Tea Party protests last weekend were racially insensitive. But if that's how we're going to score, then opposition to the Iraq war is anti-Semitic. After all, I saw a bunch of signs at antiwar protests that said bigoted things about Jews.
Meanwhile, no significant conservative politicians or pundits have said that they object to Obama's agenda because he's black. Rather, they've said they oppose his agenda for precisely the same reasons they oppose Nancy Pelosi's and Harry Reid's and Barney Frank's agendas. They stand athwart Obama yelling “Stop!” just as they did with Clinton and Democratic presidents before him.
Magically, the alchemic powers of Obama's black skin transmogrify the same arguments and the same rhetoric into racism. Saying “you're wrong” to a white politician is a disagreement; saying it to a black politician is like shouting through Bull Connor's megaphone.
It's been said that a grand jury can indict a ham sandwich. Well, these people can indict a ham sandwich for being racist. There is not an issue, topic or flavor of ice cream that Al Sharpton won't inject racism into. But suddenly Larry King needs to ask him whether opposition to socialized medicine is racist — as if Sharpton's response was ever in doubt. Why not just ask the host of an infomercial whether you really need a ShamWow?
Left-wing writers spent the week droning on about how it's now racist to say “I want my country back.” These amnesiacs are blissfully unaware that “taking back” America was the rallying cry of the Democratic Party for eight years under George W. Bush. Anti-white racists all?
Jimmy Carter sighs, “It's an abominable circumstance, and it grieves me and concerns me very deeply.” Well, ditto. Except I think the abominable circumstance is the Vesuvian eruption of nonsense belched forth from distempered liberals frustrated by their inability to win a public policy debate.
The good news is that the race peddlers have undermined themselves. The notion that opposing skyrocketing deficits and socialized medicine is racist is met with eye rolls by the vast majority of Americans, who do not need Sharpton and Carter to tell them what is — or is not — in their own hearts.
And, in fairness, when it became clear that Carter had turned this “debate” from mere fraud to farce, it suddenly dawned on some Democrats, including those in the White House, that smearing millions of constituents and swing voters (many of whom voted for Obama) as racists isn't the best politics. So one cheer for those who objected to this idiocy too little and far too late.
But others just won't let go. Maureen Dowd of The New York Times hears Rep. Joe Wilson shout, “You lie!” And her instinctive response is: “Fair or not, what I heard was an unspoken word in the air: You lie, boy!”
It's the “fair or not” that gives Dowd away. She admits to hearing racism whether or not it's warranted. That's called prejudice. And unlike Wilson's foolish outburst, Dowd's was carefully considered. Dowd, Carter and Sharpton can't grasp that conservatives are less hung up on race than they are and that we can get past Obama's skin color. “Some people just can't believe a black man is president and will never accept it,” writes Dowd. She's right. She's one of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:44 am 
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Monte wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Again Monty, thank you for proving my point. You've done quite well.


What exactly are you referring to, Nitefox?



You're insistance in just focusing on race and conspiracy theories. You bring it up in multiple threads.

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