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Taskiss
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:32 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
What is an objective truth?

"Gravity" = "the attraction between massive objects" is an objective truth.

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Aizle
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:32 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Assume, for the purposes of this thread, that by fact I mean "something that is objectively true". Not all things that are objectively true are knowable.

ok... except for the last part. Truth requires knowledge. It's a chicken and egg thing, by definition. Subjective truths are truths sometimes, objective truths are truths all the time.

What is an objective truth? Everything we consider a fact is based upon a label or definition we have applied to it. Just because everyone agrees with the prevalent accepted notion doesn't make it fact. Even mathematics is not factual. The area within a circle is finite but we can't measure it accurately, we can only get close enough with pi.


Right, everything is an abstraction.
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Hopwin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:34 am 
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Gravity requires pi...

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Which means again, we can't actually measure it. We get close enough and quit.

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TheRiov
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:34 am 
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I think my point is that for a disciplined mind, given the motivation, it would seem to be possible to create any moral framework, and thus in essense, no moral framework.
A flexible frame is no frame at all.

If thats the case then the first steps to modify ones moral framework by an act of will, create an everincreasing moral 'flexiblity' -- This is in essense a slipperly slope argument, that as soon as you loosen the frame a little, you doom yourself to eventual moral corruption. (from an initial point of view)

I donno. I'm still thinking on it.
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Rynar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:35 am 
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I feel like half the people posting to this thread are playing the role of James Taggart.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 
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TheRiov
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:37 am 
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The sole defense against which would seem to be an absolute moral framework that is self-supporting. As long as that holds, the disciplined mind will not chose to modify the framework. As soon as those first choices are made then further modifications become easier and easier--a downward spiral of corruption.
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Taskiss
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:38 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Right, everything is an abstraction.
Nope. Facts are verified and can be proved conceptually. If they can't then they're not facts... AND, to discuss "facts" requires one to adopt a rigid framework which precludes abstraction.

The consideration of the question "what is the sum of one plus one" requires a rigid definition framework and precludes "blue" as a factual answer.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Taskiss
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:39 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Gravity requires pi...

Image

Which means again, we can't actually measure it. We get close enough and quit.

Not true. All that gravity requires is mass. Your need to measure it doesn't define it.

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Rynar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:40 am 
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Consider that there are questions you do not know exist, and there are correct answers to those questions.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 
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Taskiss
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:47 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Consider that there are questions you do not know exist, and there are correct answers to those questions.

Facts are defined as "something verified and can be proved conceptually". To consider otherwise is to consider truths as falsehoods and at that point... and any further conversation would be random rambling as far as being relevant. I could offer "blue" as a response to all questions and I'd be "right", given the framework of the discussion.

Consider, "what came first, the chicken or the egg"? That very question was created in recognition that there are truths that are undiscoverable, so, there are no facts that can apply. One or the other MUST be true, but we'll never know.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rynar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:48 am 
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What are they before they are verified and proven conceptually? Incorrect?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 
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Taskiss
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Rynar wrote:
What are they before they are verified and proven conceptually? Incorrect?

Unknown. There are facts and there are unknowns. The collapse of the unknown into a known births a fact.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rynar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:51 am 
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But correct none the less?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 
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Taskiss
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:55 am 
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Rynar wrote:
But correct none the less?

There are three states of reality, true, false and unknown.

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Müs
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:57 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
Rynar wrote:
What are they before they are verified and proven conceptually? Incorrect?

Unknown. There are facts and there are unknowns. The collapse of the unknown into a known births a fact.

Image

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Taskiss
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:58 am 
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Müs wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Rynar wrote:
What are they before they are verified and proven conceptually? Incorrect?

Unknown. There are facts and there are unknowns. The collapse of the unknown into a known births a fact.

Image


EXACTLY!

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Rynar
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:01 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Rynar wrote:
But correct none the less?

There are three states of reality, true, false and unknown.


Three states of perceived reality. Perceived reality has nothing to do with actual reality, however.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 
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Taskiss
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Rynar wrote:
But correct none the less?

There are three states of reality, true, false and unknown.


Three states of perceived reality. Perceived reality has nothing to do with actual reality, however.

There is only one reality.

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Müs
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:06 pm 
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But does it or does it not have a spoon?

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Screeling
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Rynar wrote:
What are they before they are verified and proven conceptually? Incorrect?

Unknown. There are facts and there are unknowns. The collapse of the unknown into a known births a fact.

Image

That picture rules. Sadly, I'm the only one here at work that actually gets it.

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Taskiss
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:07 pm 
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Müs wrote:
But does it or does it not have a spoon?

There are meta-realities in which, indeed, it has a spoon.

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Rynar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
There are three states of reality, true, false and unknown.


Three states of perceived reality. Perceived reality has nothing to do with actual reality, however.

There is only one reality.


Well, technically you don't actually know that.

Even if I were to consent to that for purposes of this thread, that reality has nothing to do with your perception of it.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 
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Müs
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Well, my reality has a spoon in my drawer. Now, I just need to conceive some chocolate pudding to put it in.

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Taskiss
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:11 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Well, technically you don't actually know that.

Technically, I do.

Cogito ergo sum

"I think, therefore I am!"

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Rynar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:13 pm 
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You are only speaking of your perceptions, which may not be correct.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 
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