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 Post subject: Relativity question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:26 pm 
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Okay, so I always wondered about the idea that nothing travels faster than the speed of light. I read last night some basic theory on why and was recalling the question I've heard asked about what happens when you're in a car driving at the speed of light and you turn your lights on.

Can somebody tell me if I have the right idea?

So based on what I read, I'm supposing the inertial frame of reference is the car. From that instant in time, the lights go on and it begins traveling at the speed of light. However, another reference frame would be observing the car as its traveling at c. So basically, the car would be moving at the same speed as the light its putting out. So watching this whole thing from head on, the light and the car would run you over at the same instant, assuming the light isn't absorbed or doppler-shifted.

Is that at all close?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:08 pm 
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Light from any frame of reference always moves at light speed. If you're in a car going light speed and turn on your headlights they look like they are acting normally to you.

Since both you and the light are moving at light speed to an outside observer they won't see anything when you turn on your headlights.

Yes it goes against everything we "know in our gut".

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:11 pm 
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To the driver of the car, going at the speed of light, the light beam would still be measured as going the speed of light relative to himself. So an outside watcher would see a beam of light going the speed of light preceeding a car going the speed of light. The light would reach the observer first.

Impossible you say? No more impossible than a car going the speed of light.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:14 pm 
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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:18 pm 
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Raber wrote:
Either way, you wouldn't know what hit you...


Quite literally! Since you wouldn't ever see the car coming. :p


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:24 pm 
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You're assuming the speed of light is a constant ::nods::

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:46 pm 
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This is unanswerable, as is. Nothing with mass can travel at or above the speed of light. So it's impossible to say what would happen.

But let's say we have an observer, Alice, outside of the car. Another observer, Bob, is inside the car. Suppose that Bob is moving at 0.9c according to Alice. At some point in time, he turns on his headlights. We'll call that "t0". Alice then measures out one second (from her perspective) and we call that moment "t1". According to Alice, Bob has traveled 0.9 light-seconds between t0 and t1, and the light from his headlights has traveled exactly 1 light-second. So according to Alice, Bob's headlights are only 0.1 light-seconds ahead of him after one second.

Bob sees things entirely differently. According to Bob, the amount of time between t0 and t1 is much smaller than the 1 second reported by Alice. As well, the distance covered between t0 and t1 is also smaller according to Bob. From his perspective, the headlights operate just like they always do. The crux of the issue is that Alice and Bob have greatly different standards of distance, both in space and in time owing to the difference in their velocity. The only thing they'll agree on is the speed of light and the difference in their velocities.

Interestingly enough, if Bob drives directly towards Alice in this scenario, by the time she finally sees him coming, he will appear to be moving at super-luminal speed (i.e. faster than light). This requires a little extra thought. From Alice's perspective:

t0: Bob is 10 light-seconds away. He turns on his headlights.
t1: Bob is 9.1 light-seconds away. Light from t0 is 9 light-seconds away.
t2: Bob is 8.2 light-seconds away. Light from t0 is 8 light-seconds away. Light from t1 is 8.1 light-seconds away.
t3: Bob is 7.2 light-seconds away. Light from t0 is 7 light-seconds away. Light from t1 is 7.1 light-seconds away. Light from t2 is 7.2 light-seconds away.
...

The pattern is similar and related to doppler shift. The light from t1 will arrive a mere tenth of a second after the light from t0. It will appear from the visual record that Bob moved 0.9 light-seconds in only 0.1 seconds. It will look like Bob is traveling at 9 times the speed of light.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Light from any frame of reference always moves at light speed.


Light can be slowed.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:05 pm 
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The speed of light is not technically constant, and the next large breakthrough in physics will likely come from a comprehensive understanding of how light behaves.

At the moment, a constant speed of light leads a great deal of theoretical physics into brick walls that are not there if the speed of light is variable.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Light from any frame of reference always moves at light speed.


Light can be slowed.


It can even be stopped but I doubt that the OP was expecting the energy of the light or the car to be traveling into a Bose-Einstein condensate and be stored as a quantum signature.

Of course lets add needless particulars to a relatively straight-forward question about relativity.

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 Post subject: Re: Relativity question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:30 pm 
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No point in adding needless particulars, the speed of light in earth's atmosphere is not equal to C.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:32 pm 
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When discussing questions regarding relativity, unless otherwise specified, its being talked about as occuring in a perfect vacume with no gravitational effects. I think we all know this.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Fine.

Back to the original question- lets just assume you mean that the car is traveling the same speed as the light emitted from your headlights.

Not only would you not see the car coming until it hit you (no headlights), but if you were in the car, you would not see any illumination from the lights.

Illumination from headlights requires the light to reach an object, and reflect off back to your eyes- in other words, it has to travel to the object it is illuminating and then back to you for you to see the object. If you are moving as fast as the light is, it will not reach your eyes until you have run over the object.

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 Post subject: Re: Relativity question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:14 pm 
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None of this is going to answer your Einstein thought-experiment, but it's relevant to the discussion at hand. I'm not going to touch on Doppler shifting, because that's based on waves being emitted by a moving source. Doppler shift causes frequencies and wavelengths to be measured differently from their actual values. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_shift

There are currently theories being put forth that the value of certain scientific constants have changed over the history of the universe. For example G, or the gravitation constant, has not always been equal to Image. If that were the case, even for just that one number, it would have wide-ranging implications on physical law. Proponents claim that it is true for many more constants.

The problem with such a theory is that those numbers were obtained through experimentation, and often with instruments that are nowhere near as precise as what we have today. They are also, by their very nature, approximations. It would be very difficult (not impossible, just difficult) to prove that they are changing.

The speed of light is given by the following equation: c = 1/√(ε0μ0)

ε0 is the electrical permittivity constant of a vacuum
μ0 is the magnetic permeability constant of a vacuum

We may extend this further to state that, for any medium, c = 1/√(εμ) where ε and μ are the permittivity and permeability constants associated with that medium. As such, the speed of light that we are all familiar with (3x10^8) is more correctly written as c0 - the speed of light in a vacuum.

That we can relate the speed of light to electric and magnetic constants makes sense when you stop to consider what light is - an electromagnetic wave. You may have covered sound in physics, and discussed how the velocity of a sound wave is the product of its frequency and wavelength. This is the same for electromagnetic waves, except they always have a speed of 1/√(εμ). Most of space is a vacuum, which gives us the c we all know and love.

The speed of light could change, but doing so would also require that the electrical permittivity and magnetic permeability of a vacuum changes to go along with it. As I mentioned above, it's been theorized that some scientific constants have actually changed, and there are claims to have supporting evidence. Those are two of the big ones.

This still doesn't mean that you can travel faster than the speed of light. Much of that revolves around the metric for measuring space. You are familiar with the Pythagorean theorem. It leads to the distance formula that your algebra teacher made you memorize.

Image

With a little work, we can also find the hypotenuse of a triangle that lies in x-y-z coordinate space, rather than just in an x-y plane. This leads to the following as the distance formula in 3-space

Image

We can take this a step further, and use that formula to find the length of curvy lines - things that can't be turned into a right triangle. First, I will replace the left side of the equation with S. (Reason being, I'm about to start using the lower-case d for something else). I now have:

S^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2

It can also be written as

S = √(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)

With this formula, I'm still only able to use straight lines. I can't find the length of wiggly lines without calculus. To do that, I have to chop my curve S up into lots of little tiny pieces, dS. Each little piece dS is so tiny that it's close to being straight. The more pieces I chop S into, the closer each dS gets to being straight. If I use an infinite number of dS pieces, they will all be straight. Anyone who has had basic calculus would recognize this as leading up to a Riemann sum, only I'm not using rectangles to approximate area, I'm using tiny slices of length to approximate arc length. This leads to the following formula:

dS = √(dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

If I then write S as a parametric curve, meaning I write x, y, and z as functions of another variable (usually t), I have the following:

dS = √[(dx/dt)^2 + (dy/dt)^2 + (dz/dt)^2]dt

What I'm doing is adding up little bits and pieces of S, which I find by adding together the squares of the coordinate components of its first time-derivative. It's a formula that's very familiar to any student that's taken multivariable calculus. I end up with this:

S = ∫√[(dx/dt)^2 + (dy/dt)^2 + (dz/dt)^2]dt a<t<b

That may be a little confusing to read. Here is an image that makes it look a little more like you'd see in a textbook.

Image

That's what it looks like for two dimensions. Just imagine a third term under there, only with z.

This integral concept is very important. If you've never taken calculus, don't worry quite so much about how to actually take an integral. Just understand that I'm adding up a lot of little tiny pieces to get something large.

Now, you should have noticed a pattern emerging when I was writing out the distance formulas for two and three dimensions. If I had a fourth dimension, you might think that the distance formula looks something like this:

S^2 = w^2 x^2 + y^2 + z^2

That is a valid metric for four-dimensional geometry. You've probably heard time listed as the fourth dimension, which would lead you to assume that the metric for four-dimensional space-time looks like this:

S^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 + t^2

You would be wrong. For starters, the units aren't right. x, y, and z are all spatial dimensions, while t is a time dimension. That's easily fixed by multiplying t by a velocity (specifically: light in a vacuum), giving us the following:

S^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 + (c*t)^2

You would still be wrong. According to Einstein's theory of special relativity, the metric for real four-dimensional space-time is actually:

S^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - (c*t)^2

What's the difference? Look closer. There is a subtraction symbol in front of the t term! Now, even this metric isn't entirely correct, because it doesn't account for the curvature of space-time due to a large concentration of mass. That's general relativity, and we aren't going there.

If I attempt to find arc length in a four-dimensional space-time, I would use a formula that looks like:

dS^2 = dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 - c^2*dt^2

I would parameterize that curve with some letter that isn't t (u and v are good choices, or perhaps the Greek letter tau), and then integrate with respect to my parameter.

Going back to that negative sign in the metric of four-dimensional space-time, for a moment. It seems like such a small, tiny little thing. That little change in arithmetic is the difference between a universe where faster-than-light travel is possible, and one where it isn't. (The reason why isn't something I've taken the time to explore, so I'm unable to elaborate further). This is where the concept of imaginary time comes from. Physicists often use the transformation t->it, so that when the time term is squared, i is squared along with it, comes out to be -1, and changes the sign on the time term.

I also want to take a moment to revisit that equation in its entirety.

dS^2 = dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 - c^2*dt^2

There is a very profound difference between the two sides of that equation. One side, the left, is a real thing. It exists. You can see it with your own eyes. You can measure it with a ruler. The right side of that equation is a mathematical construct. We use it to help us understand and study the universe. It's a tool. It's accurate, but it's just a tool. It's held up to scrutiny, however, unlike the previous metric where we had addition all the way across.

At any rate even if the value for the speed of light in a vacuum were to change, it would also change in the metric for measuring space-time. We would still find it impossible to travel faster than light.

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Last edited by Corolinth on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Coro...will you tutor me in math? Or better yet, would you just do it for me? You lost me on the 2nd sentence..

Thank god my IV pumps have a Coro programmed into them, so I can just fill in the blanks.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Lonedar wrote:
To the driver of the car, going at the speed of light, the light beam would still be measured as going the speed of light relative to himself. So an outside watcher would see a beam of light going the speed of light preceeding a car going the speed of light. The light would reach the observer first.

Impossible you say? No more impossible than a car going the speed of light.


So you're saying you would see the car before it hits you?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:34 pm 
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It is all theory. Until such time as we can build something with mass that can realistically attempt to approach and exceed the speed of light, all of this remains theory.

Admittedly there is some really neat and very convincing math behind the theory, but that is still a theoretical and not practical proof.

Of course, we're still generations away from building that device, barring huge breakthroughs in the interim.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:05 pm 
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Nothing with mass may be accelerated to the speed of light. The amount of kinetic energy as an object of finite mass approaches C is asymptotic towards positive infinity. However, an object of finite mass may certainly travel at the speed of light relative to some inertial frame of reference if it were to happen to always exist at such a speed relative to that inertial FoR.

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 Post subject: Re: Relativity question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:53 pm 
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If Coro were my physics with calculus teacher in college, I may have actually liked it. Excellent way to describe it all in simplistic terms. But this thread is the reason why I happily went to biology instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:52 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Lonedar wrote:
To the driver of the car, going at the speed of light, the light beam would still be measured as going the speed of light relative to himself. So an outside watcher would see a beam of light going the speed of light preceeding a car going the speed of light. The light would reach the observer first.

Impossible you say? No more impossible than a car going the speed of light.


So you're saying you would see the car before it hits you?


No, I was saying the light would hit the observer before the car. But I can see where you would think that from my response...I covertly inserted a 3rd observer that wasn't in the path of the car, and then answered relative to the observer in Screeling's question.

Kudos for paying attention.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:09 am 
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Still trying to figure out how Darkseige (dS) got into the discussion.

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