The Glade 4.0

We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards

* 10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
* 10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.


We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

I'd have to see their definition of "More Lucrative" before I passed total judgement.

Seeing as how in ICC, the 25's drop 3 pieces of loot, and the 10's drop 2 (albeit a lower iLvl), and only wing bosses of 25M drop tokens (at the expense of 2 pieces of loot...).

I get this sinking feeling that the 25M versions will be *4* pieces of loot, and an extra badge.

Frankly, the first 4 fights in ICC are easier IMHO on 25 man, than 10 man.

I thought their point was that the difference between them won't be vastly different. They'll have equal difficulties.

25m = more loot, gold, emblems. = Faster gearing process?

10m = Same gear but less of it = slower gearing process?

I guess it all depends on whether or not they can follow through with saying they will be the same difficulty.

I am thinking a bit on how they seem to plan to do multiple raids per tier, though, and how that may solve things. Using the SSC/TK example, our 25s could start pushing into SSC and learning that, while we have a team or two of 10s that do TK. That may be one solution.

Here are some clarifications to a few common questions we're seeing.

Q u o t e:
Regarding how the raid dungeons will share the same lockout. This means that you cannot do separate instances in the same week. If you defeat an encounter in 10 player normal mode then you are locked to the 10 player mode of that dungeon for that week and can flip between 10 player normal and 10 player heroic on a per boss basis (assuming heroic is available). In this scenario you cannot do the 25 player version. Is this correct?

Correct. There should be no circumstances under which you kill a boss more than once per week on the same character. However, in the same way that you can decide on a per-boss basis whether to try normal vs. hard mode, we might allow you to change between 10 and 25 on a per-encounter basis for additional flexibility. If you started a raid in 25-player mode and then found that you couldn’t get everyone together later in the week, you might be able to downsize the next few bosses to 10-player.

Q u o t e:
Will legendary items be available through 10 player dungeons? How about special mounts like Invincible?

In some of these specific cases, the answer is that we just don’t know yet. We’re going to have to walk a fine line between dropping the same items in both 10- and 25-player modes, versus still offering something extra for the 25s. If we over-reward the 25s, then players who like 10-player raiding will still feel compelled to find more warm bodies. If we don’t provide any extra incentive for 25s, then some players may stop playing with their friends in order to avoid the extra organization required for a large raid.

Overall, our goal is that you make the decision between whether to raid with 10 players or 25 players based on what you find fun and not because of the reward structure.

For perspective, it might help to look back at how we changed lockouts and hard modes on every single raid tier of Wrath of the Lich King to see what felt right and try to fix problems that arose from previous tiers. After seeing the first tier of Cataclysm raiding, we may decide to adjust our design for the next tier.

Q u o t e:
How many pieces of loot will drop for 10 and 25 player modes respectively?

When we say “25 should drop more loot,” we’re just sharing a philosophy. You shouldn’t assume that this means that 10-player modes will drop 1 item or that 25-player modes will drop 6 items, or whatever. We haven’t finalized how much loot will drop, but our general goal is that 25s should drop more to help make up for some of the logistical cost.

Q u o t e:
Will achievements be broken down by 10/25 modes? Will realm first achievements/titles be only for 25s? Will meta-achievement mounts be available for both versions still?

There will just be raid achievements, not 10- vs. 25-player versions in most cases. The achievement won’t care if you complete it in 10s or 25s. If we do meta-achievement mounts, it’s possible we’d still have different colors of mounts, or maybe even different mounts; but for some players that might mean that 25s feels mandatory again, which would be a potential problem. This is the kind of thing we’re going to have to consider carefully, and again, we might try a few different implementations before sticking with something we like.

We’re also not sure about realm first achievements or titles. We don’t want to encourage, say, 25-player focused guilds to run a 10-player raid instead because they think that will get them the ream first title faster. One potential solution is you can earn a realm first title in 10 or 25, but not both. These types of achievements also serve as great content for guild achievements.

So my question for those up in arms over the 25 mans.

If the only reason you go to 25's is the better loot, then who cares? You'll now be able to get that loot from 10's. What's the big deal?

I have more than 9 friends in guild and like to raid with them. These changes will ensure that our guild will no longer do the 25 man content, and some of my friends will be left out. Or, I'll get left out of raids for whatever reason. I *like* raiding. I don't like logging in and being told "Oh, we only have 17 on, and some will have to sit out because we only have 2 tanks."

Having one lockout for 10's and 25's will absolutely do this.

You had exactly this problem when they dropped down from 40 mans. And frankly it would be way easier to fill 3 slots to run 2 - 10 mans, than find 7 to fill out a 25.

Q u o t e:
This change is likely to completely destroy my guild, which has been together since 2000, in the days of EverQuest. Over the years, we have grown/shrunk and changed with the times, but I don't think we will be able to weather this.

The way we currently work, we keep 25 mans on our DKP system, and people can run 10 mans whenever they want on off nights. With loot and lockouts the same between 25s and 10s, we will be forced to keep all loot and all raids on the same DKP system to remain fair.

I believe this will rip us to shreds. Here's why.

Our 25 man raids are traditionally way behind our 10 mans, progress-wise, because we have such a wide variety of more skilled and lesser skilled players. We have maintained our connections over the years primarily for social reasons, which means, frankly, that some of us just aren't as good at raiding or as invested in raiding as others of us. We have struggled, as a result, to find a healthy balance that pleases both our more casual, lesser skilled players, and our more hardcore players.

The solution we've fought to arrive at has basically resulted in the following: The more casual folks tend to raid 25 mans only. The hardcore folks tend to raid both 10s and 25s. Hardcore raiders like to raid in 10s on offnights to fill up their schedule as well as do some of the harder kills and heroics. Then they hit 25s for some of the better gear.

With this change, raiders will be forced to choose 10s or 25s, but won't be able to do both.

Queue the chain reaction.

Our 25 man crews will be gutted of a lot of quality players who, when forced to choose one or the other, would rather spend their time with the hardcore crews than with the casuals, which in turn will shaft our casual players who only raid 25s. Our 25 man raiding scene will collapse. Casuals who want to raid will have to go on 10s or not raid. The hardcore 10s will be pressured to bring casuals, making our hardcore raiders who want to progress faster unhappy. Our 10 man raiding scene will collapse as hardcore raiders are forced to leave to find another guild that is more suitable to their skill levels. Casuals will no longer be able to raid at all. Raiding is now dead in ER. ER dies.

Thanks, Blizzard, for what promises to destroy a decade of blood, sweat, and tears. Horrible, horrible change, imho.

Only thing I can think of is it seems like you can progress as far as you can on 25s then switch to 10 mans and do the rest. That might be an option?