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 Post subject: Re: Disturbing
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Khross wrote:
A warrant should be required to record location. And, regardless of what DE thinks, you do have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your vehicle. And window tinting has a negligible impact on car safety. The rules are for "plain sight" assistance.


Khross, you do have some reasonable expectation of privacy inside your vehicle. That reasonable level, however, is far lower than in your home, and is also far lower than where you think reasonable is. Reasonable is not determined solely by the concerns of law-abiding persons who are suspicious of the police; it is also determined by what avoids the problem of the criminals using laws as a shield to get away with crimes.

As for tinting the safety effect is not negligable. However, the plain sight assistance is so that officers who stop people can see if they are holding a weapon. The officer's safety is more important than any desire to put on tint for privacy.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:58 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Hmmm....
The Fourth Amendment wrote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that homes have some kind of special status not confered upon other personal property, but it certainly doesn't come from the 4th Amendment. It makes no distinction between the various kinds of personal property.


It somes from the fact that the courts have so ruled. What is reasonable for any one of those highly general categories above is not necessarily reasonable for any other. More to the point, looking into your car through a window is not a search any more than seeing you walk down the street or through a window to your home that has been left open.

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I don't necessarily have any problems with "in plain sight" doctrine in general. However, with respect to cars, I submit that passing a law which prohibits window tinting that would obscure the interior of the car from plain sight is no different than passing a law which requires that people's homes be made of glass so that police will be able to see inside without a warrant.


That's really quite silly. Aside from the fact that most laws do allow some level of tint, no one is asking that the entire car be made of glass. A law prohibiting tint on car windows is of far greater practical value than one banning it on houses because of the nature of cars and traffic stops. and in any case a law requiring either houses or cars to be made of glass would be impossible as a practical matter. There is a balance to be achieved in that regard, and the failure of the law to reduce itself to absurdity does not mean it's being somehow inconsistent.

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The argument that they need to be able to see if someone inside the vehicle is about to take violent action against them is disingenuous at best. The same conditions would apply when police approach homes and buildings, and yet we don't prohibit fully tinted/reflective windows on buildings and homes, nor require that every room of the house be plainly visible from the exterior. That justification is based on the unsupportable premise that a vehicle, as a private property, somehow has less status under the fourth amendment than a home.


You're basing this on your assertion that "reasonable" for homes is necessarily at the same level as "reasonable" for other things, which is not the case. Furthermore, you know perfectly well that the constrution of a building is different from that of a car. A car necessarily must have more space devoted to windows for safe operation. It is also operated on the public streets. If you're walking down the street and are seen by a polcie officer he hasn't somehow violated your right to security in your person by viewing you. There is nothing disingenuous or unsupportable about it; you're out in public and your operation of the vehicle in and of itself is a hazard to others in ways a home is not, necessitating traffic laws. By choosing to be out on the public street you are surrendering much of your privacy voluntarily, and should not get some special protection because you're in a car that a man on a horse, bike, or on foot doesn't. No one is talking about letting the police go in your trunk or glove compartment without a warrant.

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Further, I submit that any law requiring that personal property be made involuntarily open to plain sight is functionally equivalent to a warrantless search.


This really has nothing to do with anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:12 pm 
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Slippery Slope is only a fallacy when based on conjecture. Applying observed historical action in similar cases is a form of evidence not conjecture.

That being said even ignoring that - this allows tracking within areas given strict privacy (a gated private residence) which would normally require a warrant. Same standard.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Slippery Slope is only a fallacy when based on conjecture. Applying observed historical action in similar cases is a form of evidence not conjecture.


This is not true.

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That being said even ignoring that - this allows tracking within areas given strict privacy (a gated private residence) which would normally require a warrant. Same standard.


The knowledge that a person's vehicle is at their residence is not a matter of strict privacy. Vehicles can easily be seen pulling in and out and through garage windows. Just like if the police see that you're home because you're moving in front of your window.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:23 pm 
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Yes it is true. If I can show that slicing a neck with a piece of glass has a historical 40% chance of killing someone and a20% chance of nerve damage it is not a slippery slope to state that cutting someone's neck has a good chance of severely injuring them.

If on the other hand I say that legalizing gay marriage will lead to interspecies marriage while having zero historical evidence - that is a slippery slope fallacy.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:42 am 
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To claim that gps tech has any additional impact of personal privacy because "it's a step in wrong direction" is a slippery slope fallacy - there is no additional loss of privacy or encroachment on personal rights when it is used than if purely visual observation is used.

GPS the way it was used is technology that enhances surveillance. The act of watching and following someone doesn't require a court order and gps data merely allows for less opportunity of detection.

If you want to claim that the slippery slope isn't a fallacy you have to show some additional loss of privacy or rights.

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 Post subject: Re: Disturbing
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:51 am 
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I have no points of interest in this particular thread other than to say... I bet these people know more about a slippery slope than many of us ever will...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:20 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Yes it is true. If I can show that slicing a neck with a piece of glass has a historical 40% chance of killing someone and a20% chance of nerve damage it is not a slippery slope to state that cutting someone's neck has a good chance of severely injuring them.


Yes. However that is not the same as the argument being made here. There is no historical data showing any such concrete numbers; the subjective opinions and bare assertions so far are not evidence, and the slippery slope argument being made is that we necessarily will arrive at some undefined but unacceptable point down the road because of things like GPS trackers.

Furthermore, arguing that something has the "potential" for abuse is silly; practically everything anyone does has the potential for some sort of abuse.

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If on the other hand I say that legalizing gay marriage will lead to interspecies marriage while having zero historical evidence - that is a slippery slope fallacy.


Actually that's just a non-sequiter, but in any case, that's precisely the problem. No historical data has been shown (and anecdotes will not cut it).

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 Post subject: Re: Disturbing
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:58 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
The officer's safety is more important than any desire to put on tint for privacy.

I disagree. The safety of police does not trump privacy, and when cops begin to think it does is when we start getting 3 AM raids on the wrong address with cops shooting first... their safety is after all more important than the rights of the citizens... you know, those rights they are paid to protect.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:04 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
TGPS the way it was used is technology that enhances surveillance. The act of watching and following someone doesn't require a court order and gps data merely allows for less opportunity of detection.

GPS does not stop recording data when the vehicle on which it is attached is no longer in public view, or plain site. That is a distinct difference in ability, and why it is so useful for police.

I will point out again though, by this ruling (well, at least by the info posted here, haven't read the whole ruling or case), any citizen may now attach a GPS unit to any vehicle and record the movements, as the 9th district just ruled its the same as watching them. We will of course ignore the rules most, if not all states, have against tampering with cars (this is tampering).

This could, if someone was so inclined, be a lot of fun... attach GPS units to police cars and start recording their where about and travel patterns.... Think of all the great things that could accomplished by enterprising individuals who now know the location of police cars.

Imagine the **** storm that will occur when the police decide this isn't such a great idea... like say with recording police officers. Oh wait... video taping police that are in plain view is against the law...

I love the hypocrisy.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:15 am 
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Anyone remember the big fuss last year over people getting parking tickets in their own driveways?

Quote:
"Any area between the property line and the building restriction line shall be considered as private property set aside and treated as public space under the care and maintenance of the property owner."

Basically what that means is most property owners in the District don't own the land between their front door and the sidewalk, but they are responsible for taking care of it. It's why you can get a ticket for drinking beer on your front porch in the Nation's Capital. You're technically on public space. It's also why the city can ticket you for parking in your own driveway if you don't pull your car deep enough into the driveway beyond the façade of your house or building.


Do these western states have a similar law in effect? If so, then the guy really doesn't have a case, does he?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:04 am 
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From the other end of the nation, and a bit over a year ago.
[...] GPS is a vastly different and exponentially more sophisticated and powerful technology that is easily and cheaply deployed and has virtually unlimited and remarkably precise tracking capability. With the addition of new GPS satellites, the technology is rapidly improving so that any person or object, such as a car, may be tracked with uncanny accuracy to virtually any interior or exterior location, at any time and regardless of atmospheric conditions. Constant, relentless tracking of anything is now not merely possible but entirely practicable, indeed much more practicable than the surveillance conducted in [United States v. Knotts (460 US 276 [1983])]. GPS is not a mere enhancement of human sensory capacity, it facilitates a new technological perception of the world in which the situation of any object may be followed and exhaustively recorded over, in most cases, a practically unlimited period. The potential for a similar capture of information or "seeing" by law enforcement would require, at a minimum, millions of additional police officers and cameras on every street lamp.

That such a surrogate technological deployment is not -- particularly when placed at the unsupervised discretion of agents of the state "engaged in the often competitive enterprise of ferreting out crime" (Johnson v United States, 333 US 10, 14 [1948]) -- compatible with any reasonable notion of personal privacy or ordered liberty would appear to us obvious. One need only consider what the police may learn, practically effortlessly, from planting a single device. The whole of a person's progress through the world, into both public and private spatial spheres, can be charted and recorded over lengthy periods possibly limited only by the need to change the transmitting unit's batteries. Disclosed in the data retrieved from the transmitting unit, nearly instantaneously with the press of a button on the highly portable receiving unit, will be trips the indisputably private nature of which takes little imagination to conjure: trips to the psychiatrist, the plastic surgeon, the abortion clinic, the AIDS treatment center, the strip club, the criminal defense attorney, the by-the-hour motel, the union meeting, the mosque, synagogue or church, the gay bar and on and on. What the technology yields and records with breathtaking quality and quantity, is a highly detailed profile, not simply of where we go, but by easy inference, of our associations -- political, religious, amicable and amorous, to name only a few -- and of the pattern of our professional and avocational pursuits. When multiple GPS devices are utilized, even more precisely resolved inferences about our activities are possible. And, with GPS becoming an increasingly routine feature in cars and cell phones, it will be possible to tell from the technology with ever increasing precision who we are and are not with, when we are and are not with them, and what we do and do not carry on our persons -- to mention just a few of the highly feasible empirical configurations.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:50 am 
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Ladas wrote:
This could, if someone was so inclined, be a lot of fun... attach GPS units to police cars and start recording their where about and travel patterns.... Think of all the great things that could accomplished by enterprising individuals who now know the location of police cars.

Imagine the **** storm that will occur when the police decide this isn't such a great idea... like say with recording police officers. Oh wait... video taping police that are in plain view is against the law...

I love the hypocrisy.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:13 pm 
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The thing that really bugs me about this isn't even the privacy thing (although that does bug me) it's the tampering with my car part. Nobody who isn't me (or authorized by me) should be attaching anything to my car (that includes those shitty adhesive envelopes they use to attach tickets to your car around here).


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:23 pm 
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I don't agree that a GPS transmitter can relay anything other than locational data. It is not a GPS device by definition if that's the case. The case is being implied here that calling something a GPS transmitter means it exclusively functions in that capacity and in no more. So I would argue any notions that this unit is used or could be used to relay video, audio or data in other aspects are completely moot.

Since a GPS transmitter can only transmit locational data, nothing about the information it obtains could be considered a violation of reasonable expectation of privacy or unreasonable search and seizure. A police officer or other entity could easily be assigned to tail any vehicle and detail its specific location. Perhaps the police officer himself wears a GPS transmitter and simply follows the vehicle. As long as they stay on public property, there is nothing at all "wrong" or abnormal about it. Once the subject enters a private domain, it can be noted he is simply there (further investigation and search would obviously require a warrant), but if the suspect is visibly doing something on the property visible from public property, he hasn't established measured to secure his reasonable expectation of property.

So none of the information obtained by using this GPS transmitting device constitutes anything in violation of any Constitutional rights or Federal or state law.

However, the placing of the GPS transmitter itself would (in my opinion) certainly constitute violation of reasonable expectation of privacy. Just because it obtains information that other conventional means would and it obtains information that in and of itself isn't established to be protected under the idea of a "reasonable expectation of property" (your location in public) matters not.

From a practical standpoint, I don't like this either. It is obvious they attached this device to get detailed information without having to devote as many police resources to it. However, if it becomes normal practice, criminals will make it a routine habit to search their vehicles for such transmitters and they would easily located because of they give off a very obvious EMI/RFI signature. The criminal can than just abandon the car, remove the device or more insidiously alter the device itself to mislead investigators or switch the car with another so that the person driving it basically accomplishes the same thing as tampering the device itself. There are all sorts of reasons why this device is not a good thing for investigators to rely on.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
However, the placing of the GPS transmitter itself would (in my opinion) certainly constitute violation of reasonable expectation of privacy. Just because it obtains information that other conventional means would and it obtains information that in and of itself isn't established to be protected under the idea of a "reasonable expectation of property" (your location in public) matters not.

As long as the GPS transmitter isn't placed on a car in violation of a recognized right, the fact that the person under surveillance can unknowingly disclose his location after entering private property shouldn't be a burden to the people doing the surveillance. it's just location data.

Using a pair of binoculars to watch someone on private property amounts to the same thing, the information is just transmitted using optical wavelengths in that case instead of electromagnetic wavelengths. People don't have a right to not be followed and never have.

If the cops break the law in placing the bug or if they expand the scope of the information being transmitted to include more than just gps data, then it becomes a different ball of wax.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:10 pm 
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Isn't that what I just said?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:36 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Isn't that what I just said?

I don't believe there's a violation of privacy if cops place the transmitter on a car without a warrant or court order as long as they don't break any laws (like going into your locked garage), so I don't know how your position and mine can be equivalent. I think your assertion that "the placing of the GPS transmitter itself would...constitute violation of reasonable expectation of privacy" is in contrast to that position. I could misunderstand your position though, if so then I am mistaken.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:04 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Ladas wrote:
This could, if someone was so inclined, be a lot of fun... attach GPS units to police cars and start recording their where about and travel patterns.... Think of all the great things that could accomplished by enterprising individuals who now know the location of police cars.

Imagine the **** storm that will occur when the police decide this isn't such a great idea... like say with recording police officers. Oh wait... video taping police that are in plain view is against the law...

I love the hypocrisy.

Ladas++


Except that videotaping police that are in plain view isn't against the law, and many police cars already have GPS devices anyhow so the supervisors can see where the officer is and if he is screwing off.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:11 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Except that videotaping police that are in plain view isn't against the law

It is in Maryland.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:39 pm 
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Timmit wrote:
The thing that really bugs me about this isn't even the privacy thing (although that does bug me) it's the tampering with my car part. Nobody who isn't me (or authorized by me) should be attaching anything to my car (that includes those shitty adhesive envelopes they use to attach tickets to your car around here).


That is a good point. I think I agree with this.

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 Post subject: Re: Disturbing
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:24 pm 
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I would agree with this if it involved anything actually visible without special effort to find it, or if it damaged the car in any way.

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 Post subject: Re: Disturbing
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I would agree with this if it involved anything actually visible without special effort to find it, or if it damaged the car in any way.


Awesome, so you would be okay with me coming in and putting a tracking device on your car without your consent?

Plain and simple. I buy a piece of property without a GPS built in and some douchebag government worker comes through and **** with my **** without my consent: There is a lawsuit for vandalism of my private property. **** you pigs.

Normally I respect the police but when it becomes a matter of some one altering my personal property beyond how I purchased it (without my consent), regardless of the reason... they just become pigs, no longer law enforcement officials.

***EDIT: and the more I really think about it. The more people think it is okay to alter someone else's property just because it does not look intrusive makes me stronger in my resolve that the only real hope is for humanity to fade into extinction.

I truly hate how pathetic the human race is.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:51 pm 
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to my knowledge placing bugs or initiating a wiretap require a court order, as they are mechanical and intrusive surveillance. Exactly how does a gps tracking device installed on private property differ from this?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated"

Considering that in many places castle doctrine also applies to the vehicle, but not in the least it is an effect of my life,
I can't see anyway you could defend attaching a gps transponder to private property.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:23 am 
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Question: What if law enforcement had access to spy satellites (assuming they don't) and tracked your movement from space? Is that a violation of privacy?

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